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Post by suedehead on May 22, 2013 0:43:42 GMT 1
What is the FA's logic behind increasing the size of the divisions at steps 3 and 4? That will just increase the number of midweek games thereby causing even more problems for the clubs. After all, most of their players will be fitting in playing football with their full-time job.
Your proposed structure is certainly an improvement on the current structure although I would like to see the Premier League reduced to 18 clubs. Beneath that I would be tempted to have two national divisions of 20 then two regional divisions of 20 giving a total of 98 league clubs. With your proposed structure I would have three teams promoted and relegated in each division between levels three and four.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 22, 2013 6:59:19 GMT 1
In general, I like where you are going.
But I need persuading that League One is the tier at which regionalisation should kick in. Surely travelling costs for a club such as Sheffield United, Coventry City or Crawley Town make up only a tiny proportion of their expenses ? Would Crawley want to trade two lucrative matches against Sheffield United for two not so lucrative games against Barnet ? Lost income (from fewer big matches against fallen giants) would surely far exceed saved bus fares.
Wolves' collapse last season would pit them against Newport County and either Accrington or Torquay next season. This could turn relegation from the Championship into financial ruin even more frequently than it does now, which in turn would cause Championship clubs to spend money even more recklessly to avoid relegation. Meanwhile, the smaller clubs would be plunged into endless relegation battles to avoid dropping into tier 4, which would still be considered non-league. At the moment, with only 2 clubs dropping out of League Two each year, newly emerging, well run clubs, such as Burton Albion, get a chance to consolidate after promotion.
Tier 5 should be the first regional level. Scrap the Conference, and replace it with Conference North and South. And then keep doubling the number of leagues at each subsequent tier.
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Post by Panda on May 23, 2013 0:29:46 GMT 1
Thank you for the response, guys.
The merging of Leagues One and Two is more to fit more smoothly into the non-league system below it, rather than for financial reasons in terms of travelling costs. Any change of the professional structure will be a contentious issue, which is why it is unlikely to happen any time soon.
Just to pick up on Shireblogger's point about lucrative games against bigger clubs - it's worth remembering that in the league, gate money isn't shared - it all goes to the home team. I don't know what sort of travelling following clubs like Sheffield United or Wolves have but I have my doubts about whether they'd have huge numbers following them to the other end of the country for a League One game. The other side of the coin is fans may be more willing to follow their team over shorter distances and the potential increase in the number of derby matches could see attendances rise.
Anyway, here is an example line-up for the top 7 levels of my proposed system. Some of the division allocations might not be spot-on, especially for the leagues in the south-east (but I've still put more thought into it than the FA) and it doesn't take into account all the promotions and relegations and resignations and demotions that have already started happening since the season ended (for most leagues).
LEVEL 1 PREMIER LEAGUE: Arsenal, Aston Villa, Cardiff City, Crystal Palace or Watford, Chelsea, Everton, Fulham, Hull City, Liverpool, Manchester City, Manchester United, Newcastle United, Norwich City, Southampton, Stoke City, Sunderland, Swansea City, Tottenham Hotspur, West Bromwich Albion, West Ham United
LEVEL 2 CHAMPIONSHIP: Barnsley, Birmingham City, Blackburn Rovers, Blackpool, Bolton Wanderers, AFC Bournemouth, Brighton & Hove Albion, Burnley, Charlton Athletic, Crystal Palace or Watford, Derby County, Doncaster Rovers, Huddersfield Town, Ipswich Town, Leeds United, Leicester City, Middlesbrough, Millwall, Nottingham Forest, Queen's Park Rangers, Reading, Sheffield Wednesday, Wigan Athletic, Yeovil Town
LEVEL 3 LEAGUE ONE NORTH: Accrington Stanley, Bradford City, Burton Albion, Bury, Carlisle United, Chesterfield, Crewe Alexandra, Fleetwood Town, Hartlepool United, Mansfield Town, Morecambe, Notts County, Oldham Athletic, Port Vale, Preston North End, Rochdale, Rotherham United, Scunthorpe United, Sheffield United, Shrewsbury Town, Tranmere Rovers, Walsall, Wolverhampton Wanderers, York City
LEAGUE ONE SOUTH: Brentford, Bristol City, Bristol Rovers, Cheltenham Town, Colchester United, Coventry City, Crawley Town, Dagenham & Redbridge, Exeter City, Gillingham, Leyton Orient, Milton Keynes Dons, Newport County, Northampton Town, Oxford United, Peterborough United, Plymouth Argyle, Portsmouth, Southend United, Stevenage, Swindon Town, Torquay United, Wimbledon, Wycombe Wanderers
LEVEL 4 CONFERENCE NORTH: Alfreton Town, Altrincham, Barrow, Bradford Park Avenue, Chester, Gainsborough Trinity, Gateshead, Grimsby Town, Guiseley, Halifax Town, Harrogate Town, Hereford United, Hyde, Kidderminster Harriers, Lincoln City, Macclesfield Town, Nuneaton Town, Southport, Stockport County, Tamworth, Telford United, Wrexham
CONFERENCE SOUTH: Aldershot Town, Barnet, Boreham Wood, Brackley Town, Braintree Town, Cambridge United, Chelmsford City, Dartford, Dorchester Town, Dover Athletic, Eastleigh, Ebbsfleet United, Forest Green, Havant & Waterlooville, Luton Town, Oxford City, Salisbury City, Solihull Moors, Sutton United, Welling United, Weston-super-Mare, Woking
LEVEL 5 NORTHERN PREMIER PREMIER: Ashton United, Blyth Spartans, Cammell Laird, Chorley, Colwyn Bay, Droylsden, FC United of Manchester, Frickley Athletic, Fylde, Kendal Town, Marine, Nantwich Town, North Ferriby United, Skelmersdale United, Stalybridge Celtic, Stocksbridge Park Steels, Trafford, Vauxhall Motors, Whitby Town, Witton Albion, Workington, Worksop Town
MIDLANDS PREMIER: Barwell, Bedworth United, Belper Town, Boston United, Buxton, Coalville Town, Corby Town, Eastwood Town, Grantham Town, Hednesford Town, Hinckley United, Ilkeston, Kettering Town, Leamington, Matlock Town, New Mills, Redditch United, Rugby Town, Rushall Olympic, Stafford Rangers, Stourbridge, Worcester City
SOUTHERN PREMIER: Arlesey Town, Banbury United, Basingstoke Town, Bath City, Bedford Town, Bishop's Stortford, Brighton City, Bury Town, Cambridge City, Chesham United, Chippenham Town, Farnborough, Gloucester City, Gosport Borough, Hemel Hempstead Town, Hitchin Town, Leiston, St. Albans City, St. Neots Town, Totton, Truro City, Weymouth
ISTHMIAN PREMIER: Billericay Town, Bognor Regis Town, Bromley, Canvey Island, Concord Rangers, East Thurrock United, Eastbourne Borough, Enfield Town, Hampton & Richmond Borough, Harrow Borough, Hayes & Yeading United, Hendon, Histon, Hornchurch, Kingstonian, Lowestoft Town, Maidenhead United, Margate, Metropolitan Police, Staines Town, Tonbridge Angels, Wealdstone
LEVEL 6 NORTHERN PREMIER DIV 1 EAST: Ashington, Bishop Auckland, Bridlington Town, Brigg Town, Brighouse Town, Darlington, Dunston UTS, Farsley, Garforth Town, Goole, Harrogate Railway Athletic, Ossett Albion, Ossett Town, Parkgate, Pickering Town, Scarborough Athletic, Sheffield, Spennymoor Town, Tadcaster Albion, Wakefield, West Auckland Town, Whitley Bay
NORTHERN PREMIER DIV 1 WEST: AFC Blackpool, Bamber Bridge, Barnoldswick Town, Bootle, Burscough, Clitheroe, Colne, Congleton Town, Curzon Ashton, Lancaster City, Maine Road, Mossley, Northwich Victoria, Padiham, Prescot Cables, Radcliffe Borough, Ramsbottom United, Runcorn Linnets, Runcorn Town, Salford City, Warrington Town, Winsford United
MIDLANDS DIV 1 EAST: Barton Town Old Boys, Boston Town, Carlton Town, Daventry Town, Dunkirk, Gresley, Heanor Town, Holbeach United, Hucknall Town, Kirby Muxloe, Lincoln United, Long Eaton United, Loughborough Dynamo, Loughborough University, Mickleover Sports, Quorn, Rainworth Miners Welfare, Retford United, Stamford, Staveley Miners Welfare, Woodford United, Worksop Parramore
MIDLANDS DIV 1 WEST: Alvechurch, Boldmere St. Michaels, Bridgnorth Town, Chasetown, Coleshill Town, Coventry Sphinx, Evesham United, Gornal Athletic, Halesowen Town, Kidsgrove Athletic, Leek Town, Market Drayton Town, Newcastle Town, Norton United, Rocester, Romulus, Stourport Swifts, Stratford Town, Sutton Coldfield Town, Tipton Town, Tividale, Westfields
SOUTHERN DIV 1 CENTRAL: AFC Hayes, Ashford Town (Middlesex), Aylesbury, Barton Rovers (Bedfordshire), Bashley, Beaconsfield SYCOB, Biggleswade Town, Burnham, Chalfont St. Peter, Chertsey Town, Fleet Town, Godalming Town, Guildford City, Harlow Town, King's Lynn Town, Leighton Town, North Greenford United, Northwood, Royston Town, Slough Town, Thatcham Town, Uxbridge
SOUTHERN DIV 1 SOUTH & WEST: Abingdon United, Bideford, Bishop's Cleeve, Bridgwater Town, Cinderford Town, Cirencester Town, Clevedon Town, Didcot Town, Frome Town, Hungerford Town, Mangotsfield United, Merthyr Town, North Leigh, Paulton Rovers, Poole Town, Sholing, Shortwood United, Swindon Supermarine, Taunton Town, Tiverton Town, Wimborne Town, Yate Town
ISTHMIAN DIV 1 NORTH: Aveley, Brentwood Town, Chatham Town, Cheshunt, Chipstead (Surrey), Grays Athletic, Heybridge Swifts, Maldon & Tiptree, Needham Market, Potters Bar Town, Romford, Soham Town Rangers, AFC Sudbury, Thamesmead Town, Thurrock, Tilbury, Tooting & Mitcham United, Waltham Abbey, Waltham Forest, Wingate & Finchley, Witham Town, Wroxham
ISTHMIAN DIV 1 SOUTH: Burgess Hill Town, Carshalton Athletic, Corinthian-Casuals, Crawley Down Gatwick, Cray Wanderers, Dulwich Hamlet, Eastbourne Town, Faversham Town, Folkestone Invicta, Hastings United, Herne Bay, Horsham, Hythe Town, Leatherhead, Lewes, Maidstone United, Merstham, Ramsgate, Sittingbourne, Walton & Hersham, Whitstable Town, Worthing
LEVEL 7 COMBINED COUNTIES PREMIER: Badshot Lea, Bedfont Sports, Camberley Town, Chessington & Hook United, Colliers Wood United, Cove, Croydon, Egham Town, Epsom & Ewell, Farnham Town, Guernsey, Hanworth Villa, Horley Town, Molesey, Raynes Park Vale, Redbridge, South Park, Walton Casuals, Wembley, Windsor
EASTERN COUNTIES PREMIER: Brantham Athletic, Cambridge University Press, Clacton, Dereham Town, Diss Town, Ely City, Felixstowe & Walton, Godmanchester Rovers, Gorleston, Hadleigh United, Haverhill Rovers, Kirkley & Pakefield, Mildenhall Town, Norwich United, Stanway Rovers, Thetford Town, Walsham-le-Willows, Wisbech Town, Wivenhoe Town, Woodbridge Town
ESSEX SENIOR LEAGUE: Barking, Barkingside, Basildon United, Bethnal Green United, Bowers & Pitsea, Burnham Ramblers, Clapton, Enfield, Eton Manor, Great Wakering Rovers, Haringey & Walton Development, Hullbridge Sports, Ilford, London APSA, London Bari, Sawbridgeworth Town, Southend Manor, Sporting Bengal United, Stansted, Takeley
HELLENIC PREMIER: Abingdon United, Ardley United, Ascot United, Binfield, Brimscombe & Thrupp, Cheltenham Saracens, Flackwell Heath, Highmoor Ibis, Highworth Town, Holyport, Kidlington, Marlow, Newbury, Reading Town, Shrivenham Town, Slimbridge, Thame United, Wantage Town, Wokingham & Emmbrook, Wootton Bassett Town
KENT LEAGUE: Ashford United, Beckenham Town, Canterbury City, Corinthian, Cray Valley Paper Mills, Deal Town, Erith & Belvedere, Erith Town, Fisher, Greenwich Borough, Hollands & Blair, Holmesdale, Lordswood, Phoenix Sports, Rochester United, Sevenoaks Town, Tunbridge Wells, VCD Athletic, Whyteleafe, Woodstock Sports
MIDLAND ALLIANCE: Barrow Town, Basford United, Borrowash Victoria, Causeway United, Continental Star, Earlswood Town, Ellesmere Rangers, Heath Hayes, Heather St. John's, Highgate United, Holwell Sports, Littleton, Lye Town, Nuneaton Griff, Shawbury United, Studley, Thurnby Nirvana, Walsall Wood, Wolverhampton Casuals, AFC Wulfrunians
NORTH WEST COUNTIES PREMIER: AFC Liverpool, Abbey Hey, Alsager Town, Ashton Athletic, Ashton Town, Atherton Collieries, Bacup Borough, Cheadle Town, Darwen, Formby, Glossop North End, Oldham Boro, Rochdale Town, Silsden, Squires Gate, St. Helens Town, Stockport Sports, Stone Dominoes, West Didsbury & Chorlton, Wigan Robin Park
NORTHERN COUNTIES EAST PREMIER: Albion Sports, Armthorpe Welfare, Arnold Town, Athersley Recreation, Cleethorpes Town, Emley, Glasshoughton Welfare, Hall Road Rangers, Knaresborough Town, Lincoln Moorlands Railway, Liversedge, Louth Town, Maltby Main, Nostell Miners Welfare, Pontefract Collieries, Shirebrook Town, Teversal, Thackley, Winterton Rangers, Worsborough Bridge Athletic
NORTHERN LEAGUE DIV 1: Bedlington Terriers, Billingham Synthonia, Billingham Town, Celtic Nation, Consett, Crook Town, Durham City, Guisborough Town, Hebburn Town, Jarrow Roofing, Marske United, Morpeth Town, Newcastle Benfield, Newton Aycliffe, Norton & Stockton Ancients, Penrith, Shildon, South Shields, Sunderland Ryhope CA, Team Northumbria
SPARTAN SOUTH MIDLANDS PREMIER: AFC Dunstable, Ampthill Town, Aylesbury United, Berkhamsted, Biggleswade United, Colney Heath, Dunstable Town, Hadley, Hanwell Town, Harefield United, Haringey Borough, Hertford Town, Hillingdon Borough, Leverstock Green, London Colney, Oxhey Jets, St. Margaretsbury, Stotfold, Tring Athletic, Ware
SUSSEX COUNTY LEAGUE DIV 1: Arundel, Chichester City, Crowborough Athletic, East Grinstead Town, East Preston, Hailsham Town, Hassocks, Horsham YMCA, Lancing, Lingfield, Pagham, Peacehaven & Telscombe, Redhill, Ringmer, Rye United, Selsey, Shoreham, Sidley United, St. Francis Rangers, Three Bridges
UNITED COUNTIES PREMIER: Blackstones, Cogenhoe United, Deeping Rangers, Desborough Town, Harborough Town, Huntingdon Town, Irchester United, Kempston Rovers, Long Buckby, Newport Pagnell Town, Northampton Sileby Rangers, Peterborough Northern Star, Rushden & Diamonds, Shepshed Dynamo, Sleaford Town, Spalding United, St. Ives Town, Stewarts & Lloyds, Wellingborough Town, Yaxley
WESSEX PREMIER: Alresford Town, Alton Town, Bemerton Heath Harlequins, Blackfield & Langley, Bournemouth, Christchurch, Downton, Fareham Town, Fawley, GE Hamble, Hamworthy United, Hayling United, Horndean, Lymington Town, Moneyfields, Newport IW, Portchester, Totton & Eling, Verwood Town, Winchester City
WESTERN PREMIER: Barnstaple Town, Bishop Sutton, Bitton, Bridport, Brislington, Bristol Manor Farm, Buckland Athletic, Cadbury Heath, Gillingham Town, Hallen, Ilfracombe Town, Larkhall Athletic, Longwell Green Sports, Melksham Town, Odd Down, Radstock Town, Street, Wells City, Willand Rovers, Winterbourne United
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Post by Panda on May 23, 2013 0:43:09 GMT 1
Further proof of the FA's (and the Northern League's) incompetence tonight as Ryhope Colliery Welfare find out through a newspaper reporter on Twitter that they've been thrown out of the league.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 23, 2013 7:29:03 GMT 1
Principles still good.
Put aside our difference of opinion on regionalisation at Tier 3 - which looks a positive move for smaller clubs on the way up (e.g. Mansfield gaining local derbies against Notts County and Sheffield United) - but looks less exciting for larger clubs going down (Wolves lose matches against Coventry, Bristol City and Swindon, for example).
Further down, this makes eminent sense. I know you said that your allocation of clubs in the South East isn't perfect, (for example, you have put Bognor and Eastbourne into the Isthmian but Brighton into the Southern), but I think there could be a better refinement.
The 4 divisions should perhaps be:- (1) North; (2) West Midlands, Wales & South West; (3) East Midlands, East Anglia & North London; (4) South London & South.
I think this would reduce travelling time even further (e.g. no Truro vs St Neots), and also create more derbies. When I get time, I'll rework Tier 5 in this manner, and see if my theory actually works.
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Post by suedehead on May 23, 2013 10:17:37 GMT 1
I can comment on the south east part of level 5 without looking at a map rather more easily than other parts of the country! As shireb says, it is a bit unfortunate that you have Brighton City travelling to places like Bury (St. Edmund's I assume), Bedford, Bishops Stortford and Truro but not to Eastbourne and Bognor. Obviously there will always be anomalies at this level but this one seems particularly bad.
I thought the same as shireb about Wolves but there isn't an obvious solution if regionalisation was adopted at this level.
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Post by Panda on May 23, 2013 12:59:37 GMT 1
It just shows the problem of having leagues with overlapping boundaries but you're both right, Brighton City (Whitehawk as they were) should definitely be in the Isthmian League. Luckily, they've just been promoted to the Conference South.
Having clearly defined league boundaries was something I forgot to mention in my previous posts but it is something that is definitely needed, particularly where the Southern and Isthmian Leagues are concerned. The Southern League Central seems to be a league where clubs are put when they don't fit in anywhere else. But it is also a problem further down the pyramid. For example, the two official step 7 leagues covering the North East are the Wearside League and the Northern Alliance Premier. The Wearside League had 22 clubs this season, while the Alliance only had 16. The 2 clubs relegated from the Northern League will both go into the Wearside due to their location meaning at least one club will have to move over to the Alliance to avoid a 23-team league at the 11th tier of English football. There's also the Teesside League but that only has temporary status as a pyramid league so the Teesside-based Wearside League clubs (of which there are 5) are unlikely to want to switch.
I look forward to seeing Shireblogger's reworking.
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Post by Earl Purple on May 23, 2013 18:53:36 GMT 1
If you have 2 divisions feeding the Championship, the obvious promotion/relegation strategy would be 3 down, champions up and next 2 from each N/S would enter playoffs.
You cannot expect it to always "balanace". It would be unfair to say, for example, that if the bottom 3 in the championship had 2 northern clubs and 1 southern club, that the promotion would have to go the same way, i.e. the playoffs would be between only northern clubs. What if the 3 going down were all from the same region?
Therefore clubs towards the centre of the country may need to shift league. And of course those close to the border of N/S may find they don't get to play certain "derby" games as the other club is in the other split.
By the way, some of us want more midweek games. Having games on different days from the main division gives both chances for televisation, and also for people to attend who, at a weekend, would go to watch a Premier League team and like football enough to want to go to see some smaller clubs too, especially if they are more local. e.g. someone might go and watch Manchester United on Saturday then go and watch Bury or Rochdale in a midweek clash.
I think having the "safe standing" areas and cheaper tickets for the lower divisions would make this more feasible.
It's true once you get to the amateur leagues, it makes sense that games are at weekends if the players are more likely to work weekdays. Of course not every job is weekday so you don't know for certain that will suit everybody anyway.
Shifting the football season to avoid the really cold time of the year would help too, as attending in the freezing cold can be something that makes it more attractive. At least the league season could run further into May, with perhaps a midseason break.
By the way, I would far rather leave the 3rd and 4th tiers the way they are. I think it's a big drop from being in the Championship to playing the smaller clubs that are currently in League Two. I know that Charlton fans didn't really enjoy playing some of the smaller clubs in League One.
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Thor
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Posts: 22,606
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Post by Thor on May 23, 2013 20:10:17 GMT 1
I agree with all those plans MisterH, except for regionalising League 1 and 2. I'd also like 22-24 teams in every league. Scrap a few of the pointless trophies if necessary. They should get to work on a Midlands league ASAP.
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Post by Earl Purple on May 23, 2013 22:57:50 GMT 1
If you split the Conference then I reckon it should be 3 relegated from League Two so that both divisional winners get automatic promotion, and retain a playoff for the 3rd place, containing 2nd and 3rd from each region.
Playoff semi-finals should be 2nd of one vs 3rd of the other so they will not be local games, but by this stage we have reached an important stage of the season.
I don't think splitting into 3 would be a good idea at that phase. Then you'd need 3 relegations just to fit in all the regional champions.
You could get rid of "Johnstone Paint" trophy or whatever.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 24, 2013 8:21:35 GMT 1
You could get rid of "Johnstone Paint" trophy or whatever. The JPT gave me my best ever day out at Wembley. I've been there several times (old and new stadium) for England matches, Cup Finals and American Football, but the atmosphere for the JPT final when Southampton beat Carlisle was as good as anything else. Unlike the Play-Offs, it doesn't really matter if you lose, so there isn't much tension, and all the fans are there to party. In the case of Southampton, it signalled the beginning of the phoenix emerging from the ashes of Rupert Lowe and Harry Redknapp destroying the club. In the case of Carlisle, it was a very rare opportunity to play for a trophy at Wembley. A great day out. So, although the early rounds are poorly attended, it is worth keeping for the denouement.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 24, 2013 8:37:16 GMT 1
The servers at work crashed yesterday, so I had some time to re-jig Misterhamster's Level 5.
Here's what I came up with:-
NORTH: Ashton United, Blyth Spartans, Cammell Laird, Chorley, Colwyn Bay, Droylsden, FC United of Manchester, Frickley Athletic, Fylde, Kendal Town, Marine, Nantwich Town, New Mills, North Ferriby United, Skelmersdale United, Stalybridge Celtic, Stocksbridge Park Steels, Trafford, Vauxhall Motors, Whitby Town, Witton Albion, Workington
Exactly the same as MrH's except I have removed Worksop, and added New Mills. New Mills lose a derby against Buxton as a result, but gain several games against Manchester clubs. Because of the geography of the Peak District, although New Mills is technically a Derbyshire market town, its really more of an outlying suburb of greater Manchester. Worksop lose a couple of games against sides just across the border in Yorkshire, but will gain some Nottinghamshire derbies...
MIDLANDS & COTSWOLDS: Banbury United, Barwell, Bath City, Bedworth United, Belper Town, Buxton, Chippenham Town, Coalville, Eastwood Town, Gloucester City, Hednesford Town, Hinckley United, Ilkeston, Leamington, Matlock Town, Redditch United, Rugby Town, Rushall Olympic, Stafford Rangers, Stourbridge, Worcester City, Worksop Town
I originally said West Midlands, Wales and the South West. This idea didn't really work, partly because Colwyn Bay are the only Welsh club at this level, and they naturally gravitate more towards Merseyside than the West Midlands. I have added Derbyshire, Nottinghamshire and Leicestershire to this group, and stopped going south at Bath. I know the Costwolds isn't technically correct for Bath, Gloucester, Worcester etc, but it makes the point that we're heading south west from the Midlands.
HOME COUNTIES NORTH, EAST ANGLIA: Arlesey Town, Bedford Town, Billericay Town, Bishop's Stortford, Boston Utd, Bury Town, Cambridge City, Canvey Island, Chesham United, Concord Rangers, Corby Town, East Thurrock United, Grantham Town, Hemel Hempstead Town, Histon, Hitchin Town, Hornchurch, Kettering Town, Leiston, Lowestoft Town, St. Albans City, St. Neots Town
All the clubs in this division will get to know the A1 and M11 very well indeed. Further north = Boston, Lincolnshire. One club in greater London = Hornchurch, which is really Essex boy territory. This league combines clubs that play in the Isthmian, Southern and Midlands leagues now, and seems to work far better.
LONDON, SOUTH: Basingstoke Town, Bognor Regis Town, Brighton City, Bromley, Eastbourne Borough, Enfield Town, Farnborough, Gosport Borough, Hampton & Richmond Borough, Harrow Borough, Hayes & Yeading United, Hendon, Kingstonian, Maidenhead United, Margate, Metropolitan Police, Staines Town, Tonbridge Angels, Totton, Truro City, Wealdstone, Weymouth
As it turned out, there were fewer London clubs than I had realised, so I could keep them all together in the same league, alongside every other club south of the Thames. The Margate to Truro journey would be the longest in this tier at 295 miles, but there really isn't a satisfactory way to incorporate Cornish football into the rest of the country, without involving long journeys. Lots of lots of west London and Surrey derbies in this division.
I would switch clubs between geographical divisions at the end of each season in order to maintain 22 teams per league, and equal numbers of promotions and relegations.
For example, Nantwich would sit equally comfortably in the Midlands as the North, Buxton or Stafford could also go north if necessary, and Stocksbridge could go to the Midlands. Similarly, Hornchurch and St Albans could switch between the East and London, , whilst there are plenty of teams in north London which could join the Home Counties North category. And so on...
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Post by suedehead on May 24, 2013 10:19:01 GMT 1
Poor old Truro really are out on a limb aren't they? Their shortest journey would be to Weymouth and even that is around 150 miles.
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madmurray
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Posts: 16,846
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Post by madmurray on May 24, 2013 18:55:01 GMT 1
Scottish foot ball is needing to get their finger out and sort out there leagues.
Too much squabbling under 2 different organisations and the current top league set up is a nightmare and boring.
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Post by Panda on May 24, 2013 19:36:22 GMT 1
Interesting take on things, Shireblogger. These would appear to be the footprints of the different proposals for that level, plus the FA's current setup: Mine: Shireblogger's: The FA: There doesn't seem to be much support for my idea of regionalising the third tier, so if the top 4 divisions remained the same, Earl Purple's idea of 3 down to the Conference North/South with playoffs to decide the third promoted team would be the only logical solution. I'm going to try and update my teams list to take into account more promotions and relegations and to match my intended boundaries more closely.
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Post by Panda on May 24, 2013 19:39:54 GMT 1
Scottish foot ball is needing to get their finger out and sort out there leagues. Too much squabbling under 2 different organisations and the current top league set up is a nightmare and boring. I wouldn't mind having a go at a Scottish pyramid at some point. The real debating point would be how to determine who goes into the top division(s), given the lack of structure, especially if it also incorporated teams from the junior system, some of whom are better supported than SFL clubs.
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Tom
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Post by Tom on May 26, 2013 12:34:57 GMT 1
Interesting thread. I’m another against the idea of regionalising the third tier, and would definitely prefer to have 4 divisions in the football league rather than 3. Maybe the compromise would be having it at Tier 4? When reading discussion on the structure in this country I can struggle to take it all in, I remember one such discussion on Tony Kempster’s forum many years ago which did my head in, but I think I know where you’re going with this mrh!
Btw, you’re right when you say this “I don't know what sort of travelling following clubs like Sheffield United or Wolves have but I have my doubts about whether they'd have huge numbers following them to the other end of the country for a League One game.” I saw first hand the number of away fans Sheffield United brought to Reading a couple of years ago. Admittedly they could have been relegated that day but it was a Bank Holiday and I can’t think of many clubs off the top of my head whose away support has been so small. I’m sure Preston brought more for a Bank Holiday game and I think even Burnley may have brought more for a midweek game. Speaking of Preston, they were probably the most memorable away fans I’ve seen, doing the conga even though they were thrashed on the day! (Although at the time they did it the scoreline maybe wasn’t so bad for them).
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Post by suedehead on May 26, 2013 13:20:20 GMT 1
Interesting thread. I’m another against the idea of regionalising the third tier, and would definitely prefer to have 4 divisions in the football league rather than 3. Maybe the compromise would be having it at Tier 4? When reading discussion on the structure in this country I can struggle to take it all in, I remember one such discussion on Tony Kempster’s forum many years ago which did my head in, but I think I know where you’re going with this mrh! Which is also what I suggested earlier. Part of the problem with many attempts at devising a sensible regional structure is a tendency to forget how far it is from east to west in the south of the country. The distance between Maidstone and Truro (320 miles) is further than the distance from Chichester to Northallerton (290 miles).
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Post by Panda on May 26, 2013 13:59:53 GMT 1
Hence why I don't quite agree with Shireblogger's idea of having a Southern League stretching right across the South Coast.
I've done a revision of the division line-ups but following borders much more strictly. However, the result is a bit of an overflow of around 20 South East clubs, who end up being pushed down a level to make room for clubs from other areas being put into the correct leagues. One solution might be to have a third regional division for the Isthmian League alongside the current two, though I'm not sure how they'd be split geographically.
I'll post the updated line-ups later.
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Post by Panda on May 27, 2013 3:09:57 GMT 1
Revised division line-ups, now including an extra level (with one more to be added). These allocations don't take into account ground requirements for any teams moving up from lower levels.
STEP 1 CONFERENCE NORTH: Alfreton Town, Altrincham, Barrow, Bradford Park Avenue, Chester, Gainsborough Trinity, Gateshead, Grimsby Town, Guiseley, Halifax Town, Harrogate Town, Hereford United, Hyde, Kidderminster Harriers, Lincoln City, Macclesfield Town, Nuneaton Town, Southport, Stockport County, Tamworth, Telford United, Wrexham
CONFERENCE SOUTH: Aldershot Town, Barnet, Boreham Wood, Brackley Town, Braintree Town, Cambridge United, Chelmsford City, Dartford, Dorchester Town, Dover Athletic, Eastleigh, Ebbsfleet United, Forest Green Rovers, Havant & Waterlooville, Luton Town, Oxford City, Salisbury City, Solihull Moors, Sutton United, Welling United, Weston-super-Mare, Woking
STEP 2 NORTHERN PREMIER PREMIER: Ashton United, Blyth Spartans, Buxton, Chorley, Colwyn Bay, Droylsden, FC United of Manchester, Frickley Athletic, Fylde, Kendal Town, Marine, Nantwich Town, New Mills, North Ferriby United, Skelmersdale United, Stalybridge Celtic, Stocksbridge Park Steels, Trafford, Vauxhall Motors, Whitby Town, Witton Albion, Workington
MIDLANDS PREMIER: Barwell, Bedworth United, Boston United, Coalville Town, Corby Town, Eastwood Town, Grantham Town, Hednesford Town, Hinckley United, Ilkeston, Kettering Town, King's Lynn Town, Leamington, Matlock Town, Redditch United, Rugby Town, Rushall Olympic, Stafford Rangers, Stamford, Stourbridge, Worcester City, Worksop Town
SOUTHERN PREMIER: Banbury United, Bashley, Basingstoke Town, Bath City, Beaconsfield SYCOB, Bedford Town, Bideford, Biggleswade Town, Bognor Regis Town, Burnham, Chesham United, Chippenham Town, Frome Town, Gloucester City, Gosport Borough, Hemel Hempstead Town, Hungerford Town, Maidenhead United, Poole Town, Totton, Truro City, Weymouth
ISTHMIAN PREMIER: Arlesey Town, Billericay Town, Bishop's Stortford, Brighton City, Bromley, Bury Town, Cambridge City, Canvey Island, Concord Rangers, East Thurrock United, Eastbourne Borough, Farnborough, Hayes & Yeading United, Hendon, Histon, Hornchurch, Lowestoft Town, Margate, Metropolitan Police, Staines Town, Tonbridge Angels, Wealdstone
STEP 3 NORTHERN PREMIER DIV 1 EAST: Ashington, Bishop Auckland, Bridlington Town, Brigg Town, Brighouse Town, Darlington, Dunston UTS, Farsley, Garforth Town, Goole, Harrogate Railway Athletic, Ossett Albion, Ossett Town, Parkgate, Pickering Town, Scarborough Athletic, Sheffield, Spennymoor Town, Tadcaster Albion, Wakefield, West Auckland Town, Whitley Bay
NORTHERN PREMIER DIV 1 WEST: Bamber Bridge, Barnoldswick Town, Bootle, Burscough, Cammell Laird, Clitheroe, Colne, Congleton Town, Curzon Ashton, Lancaster City, Maine Road, Mossley, Northwich Victoria, Padiham, Prescot Cables, Radcliffe Borough, Ramsbottom United, Runcorn Linnets, Runcorn Town, Salford City, Warrington Town, Winsford United
MIDLANDS DIV 1 EAST: Barton Town Old Boys, Belper Town, Carlton Town, Cogenhoe United, Daventry Town, Deeping Rangers, Dunkirk, Gresley, Holbeach United, Hucknall Town, Huntingdon Town, Lincoln United, Loughborough Dynamo, Loughborough University, Mickleover Sports, Quorn, Rainworth Miners Welfare, Retford United, Spalding United, St. Ives Town, Woodford United, Worksop Parramore
MIDLANDS DIV 1 WEST: Alvechurch, Boldmere St. Michaels, Bridgnorth Town, Chasetown, Coleshill Town, Coventry Sphinx, Evesham United, Gornal Athletic, Halesowen Town, Kidsgrove Athletic, Leek Town, Market Drayton Town, Newcastle Town, Norton United, Rocester, Romulus, Stourport Swifts, Stratford Town, Sutton Coldfield Town, Tipton Town, Tividale, Westfields
SOUTHERN DIV 1 CENTRAL: Abingdon United, AFC Hayes, Alresford Town, Ashford Town, Aylesbury, Aylesbury United, Barton Rovers, Blackfield & Langley, Chalfont St. Peter, Chertsey Town, Cinderford Town, Cirencester Town, Didcot Town, Fleet Town, Leighton Town, Marlow, North Greenford United, Sholing, Slough Town, Thatcham Town, Uxbridge, Winchester City
SOUTHERN DIV 1 SOUTH & WEST: Bemerton Heath Harlequins, Bishop Sutton, Bishop's Cleeve, Bridgwater Town, Brislington, Cadbury Heath, Christchurch, Clevedon Town, Downton, Gillingham Town, Larkhall Athletic, Mangotsfield United, Merthyr Town, North Leigh, Paulton Rovers, Slimbridge, Street, Swindon Supermarine, Taunton Town, Tiverton Town, Wimborne Town, Yate Town
ISTHMIAN DIV 1 NORTH: Aveley, Brentwood Town, Carshalton Athletic, Cheshunt, Dunstable Town, Enfield Town, Grays Athletic, Harrow Borough, Heybridge Swifts, Hitchin Town, Leiston, Maldon & Tiptree, Northwood, Potters Bar Town, Romford, Royston Town, Soham Town Rangers, St. Albans City, St. Neots Town, Thurrock, Wingate & Finchley, Witham Town
ISTHMIAN DIV 1 SOUTH: Burgess Hill Town, Corinthian-Casuals, Crawley Down Gatwick, Cray Wanderers, Dulwich Hamlet, Eastbourne Town, Faversham Town, Folkestone Invicta, Godalming Town, Guildford City, Hampton & Richmond Borough, Hastings United, Hythe Town, Kingstonian, Leatherhead, Lewes, Maidstone United, Merstham, Ramsgate, Sittingbourne, Thamesmead Town, Worthing
STEP 4 COMBINED COUNTIES PREMIER: Badshot Lea, Bedfont, Camberley Town, Cove, Croydon, Egham Town, Epsom & Ewell, Farnham Town, Guernsey, Hanworth Villa, Horley Town, Molesey, Raynes Park Vale, South Park, Three Bridges, Tooting & Mitcham United, Walton & Hersham, Walton Casuals, Wembley, Windsor
EASTERN COUNTIES PREMIER: AFC Sudbury, Brantham Athletic, Cambridge University Press, Dereham Town, Diss Town, Ely City, Felixstowe & Walton, Gorleston, Hadleigh United, Haverhill Rovers, Kirkley & Pakefield, Mildenhall Town, Needham Market, Newmarket Town, Norwich United, Stanway Rovers, Walsham-le-Willows, Wivenhoe Town, Woodbridge Town, Wroxham
ESSEX SENIOR LEAGUE: Barking, Barkingside, Basildon United, Bethnal Green United, Burnham Ramblers, Enfield, Eton Manor, Great Wakering Rovers, Haringey & Waltham Development, Haringey Borough, Harlow Town, Ilford, London Bari, Redbridge, Southend Manor, Sporting Bengal United, Takeley, Tilbury, Waltham Abbey, Waltham Forest
HELLENIC PREMIER: Abingdon Town, Ardley United, Ascot United, Binfield, Briscombe & Thrupp, Cheltenham Saracens, Flackwell Heath, Headington Amateurs, Highmoor Ibis, Highworth Town, Holyport, Kidlington, Newbury, Rayners Lane, Reading Town, Shrivenham, Thame United, Wantage Town, Wokingham & Emmbrook, Wootton Bassett Town
KENT LEAGUE: Beckenham Town, Canterbury City, Chatham Town, Corinthian, Cray Valley PM, Crowborough Athletic, Deal Town, Erith & Belvedere, Erith Town, Fisher, Herne Bay, Hullbridge Sports, Lordswood, Rochester United, Rye United, Tunbridge Wells, VCD Athletic, Whitstable Town, Whyteleafe, Woodstock Sports
MIDLAND ALLIANCE: AFC Wulfrunians, Barrow Town, Basford United, Brocton, Bromsgrove Sporting, Causeway United, Continental Star, Earlswood Town, Ellesmere Rangers, Heath Hayes, Heather St. John's, Highgate United, Kirby Muxloe, Littleton, Lye Town, Nuneaton Griff, Shepshed Dynamo, Studley, Thurnby Nirvana, Walsall Wood
NORTH WEST COUNTIES PREMIER: Abbey Hey, AFC Blackpool, AFC Liverpool, Alsager Town, Ashton Athletic, Ashton Town, Atherton Collieries, Bacup Borough, Cheadle Town, Darwen, Formby, Glossop North End, Oldham Boro, Silsden, Squires Gate, St. Helens Town, Stockport Sports, Stone Dominoes, West Didsbury & Chorlton, Wigan Robin Park
NORTHERN COUNTIES EAST PREMIER: Albion Sports, Armthorpe Welfare, Arnold Town, Athersley Recreation, Cleethorpes Town, Emley, Glasshoughton Welfare, Hall Road Rangers, Heanor Town, Lincoln Moorlands Railway, Liversedge, Long Eaton United, Louth Town, Maltby Main, Nostell Miners Welfare, Pontefract Collieries, Shirebrook Town, Staveley Miners Welfare, Thackley, Winterton Rangers
NORTHERN LEAGUE DIV 1: Bedlington Terriers, Billingham Synthonia, Billingham Town, Celtic Nation, Consett, Crook Town, Durham City, Guisborough Town, Hebburn Town, Jarrow Roofing, Marske United, Morpeth Town, Newcastle Benfield, Newton Aycliffe, Norton & Stockton Ancients, Penrith, Shildon, South Shields, Sunderland RCA, Team Northumbria
SPARTAN SOUTH MIDLANDS PREMIER: AFC Dunstable, Ampthill Town, Berkhamsted, Biggleswade United, Colney Heath, Hadley, Hanwell Town, Harefield United, Hertford Town, Hillingdon Borough, Leverstock Green, London APSA, London Colney, Oxhey Jets, Sawbridgeworth Town, St. Margaretsbury, Stansted, Stotfold, Tring Athletic, Ware
SUSSEX COUNTY LEAGUE DIV 1: Arundel, Chichester City, Chipstead (Surrey), Dorking Wanderers, East Grinstead Town, East Preston, Hailsham Town, Hassocks, Horsham, Horsham YMCA, Lancing, Lingfield, Pagham, Peacehaven & Telscombe, Redhill, Ringmer, Selsey, Shoreham, Sidley United, St. Francis Rangers
UNITED COUNTIES PREMIER: Blackstones, Boston Town, Desborough Town, Eynesbury Rovers, Godmanchester Rovers, Harborough Town, Irchester United, Kempston Rovers, Long Buckby, Newport Pagnell Town, Northampton Sileby Rangers, Northampton Spencer, Oadby Town, Peterborough Northern Star, Rushden & Diamonds, Sleaford Town, Stewarts & Lloyds Corby, Wellingborough Town, Wisbech Town, Yaxley
WESSEX PREMIER: Alton Town, Bournemouth, Brockenhurst, Cowes Sports, Fareham Town, Fawley, GE Hamble, Hamworthy United, Hayling United, Horndean, Lymington Town, Moneyfields, New Milton Town, Newport (IW), Portchester, Romsey Town, Team Solent, Totton & Eling, Verwood Town, Whitchurch United
WESTERN PREMIER: Barnstaple Town, Bitton, Bodmin Town, Bradford Town, Bridport, Bristol Manor Farm, Buckland Athletic, Elburton Villa, Hallen, Hengrove Athletic, Ilfracombe Town, Longwell Green Sports, Melksham Town, Odd Down, Plymouth Parkway, Radstock Town, Sherborne Town, Wells City, Willand Rovers, Winterbourne United
STEP 5 COMBINED COUNTIES DIV 1: Ash United, Chessington & Hook United, Cobham, Colliers Wood United, Croydon Athletic, Dorking, Epsom Athletic, Eversley & California, Feltham, Frimley Green, Hartley Wintney, Knaphill, Mole Valley SCR, Sandhurst Town, South Kilburn, Spelthorne Sports, Staines Lammas, Warlingham, Westfield (Surrey), Worcester Park
EAST MIDLANDS COUNTIES LEAGUE: Anstey Nomads, Attenborough, Aylestone Park, Bardon Hill, Blaby & Whetstone Athletic, Borrowash Victoria, Bulwell, Ellistown, Gedling Miners Welfare, Graham St. Prims, Greenwood Meadows, Holbrook Sports, Holwell Sports, Ibstock United, Lutterworth Athletic, Radcliffe Olympic, Radford, Rothley Imperial, St. Andrews (Leicestershire), Sutton Town
EASTERN COUNTIES DIV 1: Brightlingsea Regent, Clacton, Cornard United, Debenham LC, Downham Town, Fakenham Town, Gas Recreation, Great Shelford, Great Yarmouth Town, Halstead Town, Ipswich Wanderers, Linton Granta, Long Melford, March Town United, Saffron Walden Town, Stowmarket Town, Swaffham Town, Team Bury, Thetford Town, Whitton United
HELLENIC DIV 1 EAST: Bracknell Town, British Airways, Broadfield United, Chalfont Wasps, Chinnor, Cookham Dean, Easington Sports, FC Romania, Finchampstead, Henley Town, Hinksey, Interwood, Marlow United, Milton United, Penn & Tylers Green, Reading YMCA, Sandhurst Devels, Sporting Hackney, Woodcote Stoke Row, Woodley Town
HELLENIC DIV 1 WEST: Bletchingdon, Carterton, Clanfield, Cricklade Town, Fairford Town, Hook Norton, Lambourn Sports, Letcombe, Longleaze Rangers, Longlevens, Lydney Town, Malmesbury Victoria, Mansfield Road, New College Swindon, Old Woodstock Town, Oxford University Press, Purton, Riverside, Tuffley Rovers, Tytherington Rocks
KENT INVICTA LEAGUE: Ashford United, Bearsted, Bowers & Pitsea, Bridon Ropes, Crockenhill, Eltham Palace, Greenwich Borough, Hollands & Blair, Holmesdale, Kent Football United, Lewisham Borough, Lydd Town, Meridian, Orpington, Phoenix Sports, Rusthall, Seven Acre & Sidcup, Sevenoaks Town, Sutton Athletic, Woodstock Park
MIDLAND COMBINATION PREMIER: Abbey Hulton United, Alvis, Archdale '73, Atherstone Town, Audley, Blackwood, Bolehall Swifts, Cadbury Athletic, Castle Vale JKS, Coventry Copsewood, Hampton, Hanley Town, Lichfield City, Pelsall Villa, Pershore Town, Pilkington XXX, Racing Club Warwick, Redgate Clayton, Southam United, Stafford Town
NORTH WEST COUNTIES DIV 1: Atherton Laburnum Rovers, Blackpool Wren Rovers, Chadderton, Charnock Richard, Daisy Hill, Eagle Sports, East Manchester, Eccleshall, Heswall, Hindsford, Holker Old Boys, Irlam, Knutsford, Leek CSOB, Nelson, Rochdale Town, Waterloo Dock, West Everton Xaviers, West Kirkby, Whaley Bridge
NORTHERN COUNTIES EAST DIV 1: AFC Mansfield, Appleby Frodingham, Askern Villa, Bardsey, Beverley Town, Bottesford Town, Clipstone Welfare, Dinnington Town, Dronfield Town, Eccleshill United, Grimsby Borough, Hallam, Hemsworth Miners Welfare, Knaresborough Town, Rossington Main, Selby Town, Shaw Lane Aqua Force, Teversal, Worsborough Bridge Athletic, Yorkshire Amateur
NORTHERN LEAGUE DIV 2: Alnwick Town, Birtley Town, Brandon United, Chester-le-Street Town, Darlington Railway Athletic, Esh Winning, Heaton Stannington, Horden Colliery Welfare, North Shields, Northallerton Town, Ryton & Crawcrook Albion, Seaham Red Star, Stokesley Sports Club, Thornaby, Tow Law Town, Washington, West Allotment Celtic, Whickham, Whitehaven, Willington
SOUTH WEST PENINSULA PREMIER: Bovey Tracey, Camelford, Cullompton Rangers, Exmouth Town, Falmouth Town, Godolphin Atlantic, Helston Athletic, Ivybridge Town, Launceston, Liskeard Athletic, Liverton United, Newquay, Penzance, Saltash United, St. Austell, St. Blazey, Stoke Gabriel, Tavistock, Torpoint Athletic, Witheridge
SPARTAN SOUTH MIDLANDS DIV 1: Bedford, Buckingham Athletic, Clapton, Cockfosters, Codicote, Cranfield United, Crawley Green, Harpenden Town, Hatfield Town, Hoddesdon Town, Holmer Green, Kings Langley, Langford, London Lions, London Tigers, Southall, Stony Stratford Town, Sun Postal Sports, Welwyn Garden City, Winslow United
SUSSEX COUNTY LEAGUE DIV 2: Bexhill United, Broadbridge Heath, Eastbourne United Association, Little Common, Littlehampton Town, Loxwood, Midhurst & Easebourne, Mile Oak, Newhaven, Oakwood, Rustington, Saltdean United, Seaford Town, Southwick, Steyning Town, Storrington, Uckfield, Westfield (Sussex), Wick, Worthing United
UNITED COUNTIES DIV 1: Bourne Town, Buckingham Town, Bugbrooke St. Michaels, Burton Park Wanderers, Harpole, Harrowby United, Moulton, Moulton Harrox, Netherton United, Northampton ON Cheneks, Olney Town, Peterborough Sports Parkway, Potton United, Raunds Town, Rothwell Corinthians, Rushden & Higham United, Thrapston Town, Welford Victoria, Wellingborough Whitworth, Wootton Blue Cross
WESSEX LEAGUE DIV 1: Amesbury Town, Andover New Street, Colden Common, East Cowes Victoria Athletic, Fleet Spurts, Hamworthy Recreation, Holt United, Hythe & Dibden, Laverstock & Ford, Locks Heath, Petersfield Town, Pewsey Vale, Portland United, Ringwood Town, Stockbridge, Stoneham, Tadley Calleva, Tintinhull, United Services Portsmouth, Wincanton Town
WEST MIDLANDS PREMIER: Bartley Green, Bewdley Town, Bilston Town, Black Country Rangers, Bromyard Town, Cradley Town, Dudley Sports, Dudley Town, Malvern Town, Pegasus Juniors, Shawbury United, Shifnal Town, Smethwick, Sporting Khalsa, Wednesfield, Wellington (W Midlands), Wellington Amateurs, Willenhall Town, Wolverhampton Casuals, Woverhampton Sporting
WESTERN LEAGUE DIV 1: Almondsbury UWE, Calne Town, Chard Town, Cheddar, Chippenham Park, Corsham Town, Cribs Friends Life, Devizes Town, Elmore, Keynsham Town, Nailsea United, Oldland Abbotonians, Portishead Town, Roman Glass St. George, Shepton Mallett, Shrewton United, Warminster Town, Wellington (Somerset), Welton Rovers, Westbury United
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