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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Sept 8, 2022 12:04:35 GMT 1
See the take I got from that scene was the Wizard didn't want to hurt the fireflies, he kind of free'd them and gently, lovingly used them, they seemed drawn to him like i was getting the woodland wizard/talks to animals/nature vibes but the corruption and darkness running through him killed them like it kills the grass and livestock and rots peoples minds, he didn't mean to kill them. He is 100% evil (or was), its coursing through him but he is trying to fight it, might be a "redemption arc", and its possible to return from bad to good
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Post by greendemon on Sept 8, 2022 12:35:11 GMT 1
I hadn't considered that! It seems a bit too 'Marvel' for Tolkien but then even liking this series one needs to accept that it's a bit of a departure from how Tolkien wrote/would have written these stories.
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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Sept 8, 2022 14:11:31 GMT 1
Ahh see I have never read any of his books and most of the lore I remember is from 20 year ago ha (so not a lot is remembered), I probably never even watched the Peter Jackson films in the right order 😂 So I'm watching this new series as a casual so probably seeing it from a completely different angle
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Post by greendemon on Sept 8, 2022 14:33:48 GMT 1
Honestly I think that's the best way with these series! It's no fun being a book fan and getting too caught up in how you think the story should go. Unfortunately there is a category of Tolkien fanboys who appear to be particularly toxic and opposed to the show on principle, because it's just too far removed from what Tolkien would have wanted. They seem to have forgotten that even the first Peter Jackson trilogy - which are now celebrated as some of the best fantasy movies ever made! - made tons of departures from the source material. Hilarious part is the showrunners don't even have the rights to the books (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales etc.) that people are so upset are being overlooked. They literally can't adapt what they don't have access to so I'm not sure what else they are supposed to do
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TheThorne
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Post by TheThorne on Sept 8, 2022 14:42:08 GMT 1
Honestly I think that's the best way with these series! It's no fun being a book fan and getting too caught up in how you think the story should go. Unfortunately there is a category of Tolkien fanboys who appear to be particularly toxic and opposed to the show on principle, because it's just too far removed from what Tolkien would have wanted. They seem to have forgotten that even the first Peter Jackson trilogy - which are now celebrated as some of the best fantasy movies ever made! - made tons of departures from the source material. Hilarious part is the showrunners don't even have the rights to the books (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales etc.) that people are so upset are being overlooked. They literally can't adapt what they don't have access to so I'm not sure what else they are supposed to do Admitting it would be a start. I used to believe in toxic fandoms and review bombing but after you spend some time watching their videos you see, how they are being portrayed is completely wrong. The fans have a point, yes they are maybe getting too involved but that’s what companies hate, these fandoms are fans they are nerds obsessed with what they like. If the people who love Tolkien and LOTR are not enjoying the show, who is it for ? They did the same thing with Star Wars, Star Trek and Marvel. I feel really bad as my son has been telling me this for last 2 years and I thought it was all rascist, sexist,incel BS but it isn’t. Yes there are people like that but they are ‘trolls’ not fans. Fans want the show to be great. These same YouTubers are liking and enjoying HOTD when they didn’t expect to after series 8 but they are hating Rings Of Power. If it was all about diversity and identity politics that wouldn’t be happening. They both would be getting ‘review bombed’
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Post by greendemon on Sept 8, 2022 15:19:56 GMT 1
Honestly I think that's the best way with these series! It's no fun being a book fan and getting too caught up in how you think the story should go. Unfortunately there is a category of Tolkien fanboys who appear to be particularly toxic and opposed to the show on principle, because it's just too far removed from what Tolkien would have wanted. They seem to have forgotten that even the first Peter Jackson trilogy - which are now celebrated as some of the best fantasy movies ever made! - made tons of departures from the source material. Hilarious part is the showrunners don't even have the rights to the books (Silmarillion, Unfinished Tales etc.) that people are so upset are being overlooked. They literally can't adapt what they don't have access to so I'm not sure what else they are supposed to do Admitting it would be a start. I used to believe in toxic fandoms and review bombing but after you spend some time watching their videos you see, how they are being portrayed is completely wrong. The fans have a point, yes they are maybe getting too involved but that’s what companies hate, these fandoms are fans they are nerds obsessed with what they like. If the people who love Tolkien and LOTR are not enjoying the show, who is it for ? They did the same thing with Star Wars, Star Trek and Marvel. I feel really bad as my son has been telling me this for last 2 years and I thought it was all rascist, sexist,incel BS but it isn’t. Yes there are people like that but they are ‘trolls’ not fans. Fans want the show to be great. These same YouTubers are liking and enjoying HOTD when they didn’t expect to after series 8 but they are hating Rings Of Power. If it was all about diversity and identity politics that wouldn’t be happening. They both would be getting ‘review bombed’ Who said it was all about identity politics? That is undeniably the worst side of it and I have to admit I struggle to take seriously the concerns of anyone who makes a big deal about how there shouldn't be black elves because it breaks the lore. I've loved Lord of the Rings and Tolkien for years and I really couldn't care less if the elves are black, white, brown, green, whatever. Maybe that comes from being a POC myself but I utterly reject the idea that it makes the slightest bit of difference to the story if some written-entirely-for-the-show characters (all of the characters written by Tolkien are white, as far as I can tell, and broadly even have the right hair colour) have a different skin tone from the others. The show definitely hasn't done everything perfectly or even well so far, but it's immersive, it's enjoyable and to me - someone with probably more knowledge of Middle-Earth than the average punter, even if I'm not a super-committed nerd - it's a good watch. There are definitely grounds for complaining about some aspects of how characters are portrayed - I don't like that Gil-galad gets to decide if elves go to Valinor or not, I don't like that Elrond writes his speeches for him, and I really will not be happy if the Stranger turns out to be Gandalf - but I accepted a long time ago that movies and TV shows based on books or worlds are never going to be perfect adaptations and as long as they stay true to the version of the world that they themselves create, I'm OK with it (up to a point... the Gandalf thing really would annoy me ). I don't know why Tolkien's fans seem to be singularly obsessed with ensuring the lore isn't tampered with in any way. I think it could simply be because there is so much of it. The only fantasy author I can think of who spent an even remotely comparable amount of time building his own lore is GRRM, and he's involved with all of the productions of his own work (well, he was up to a point with GOT) so that doesn't leave much opportunity for fans to complain the lore is being changed or broken.
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TheThorne
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Post by TheThorne on Sept 8, 2022 16:05:11 GMT 1
The mainstream media are saying that’s why fans are not liking RoP not you or me , all the black elf stuff is just a distraction from the real complaints fans have and like you I can just watch it for what it is but the dialogue and some of the acting has really been cringe all that ship and rock b****cks for a start.
And yes we had Legolas the gravity defyer in the trilogy but nobody minded as the movie was fun, entertaining and close enough to the books that nobody really cared but then we didn’t have the internet we have now. Back then it would have just been message boards and forums like this not the media frenzy it is now.
It’s all really silly but at least it’s not She Hulk
But I totally understand why they won’t just accept anything, it is right to be expecting something better with the money that’s been spend but as you say the appendices were not much to go on..,
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Post by greendemon on Sept 8, 2022 16:10:10 GMT 1
I genuinely think the dialogue is overall pretty good apart from a few lines here and there, and going into this it was one of things I was most worried about. About 90% of it feels true to the Jackson trilogy, which was largely taken verbatim from Tolkien. Some of the acting is pretty poor; Arondir is a particular weak spot so far.
The second and third Hobbit movies were pretty bad, especially with the Legolas action hero stuff, but that was an egregious example of taking a book and 'adapting' it into something it completely wasn't. I think one of the reasons I give this show a little more leeway is it isn't really adapting anything, because as mentioned they weren't given the rights to most of the books - just the broad strokes of the world and characters that appear in LOTR or the appendices. Granted it has mostly been set-up so far so the next couple of episodes should be a lot more revealing about whether the writing is any good.
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TheThorne
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Post by TheThorne on Sept 8, 2022 16:14:51 GMT 1
I maybe being more harsh as I am watching both shows so far is making Ring of Power a 6/10 against 8/10 for HOTD, neither show is going to be a classic based on what we have seen so far but they are both slow burn , we aren’t getting a whole story in 12 hours like the Peter Jackson movies.
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Post by greendemon on Sept 8, 2022 16:19:37 GMT 1
As I said in a previous post, I haven't started HOTD yet but from what I'm hearing every indication is ROP is going to compare badly to it (which is partly why I decided not to jointly watch them).
I dunno; I enjoyed Wheel of Time (apart from the ending) at the time but now you'll be hard pressed to find anyone saying anything positive about it online. And yet I am one of those who really didn't get on with Season 8 of GOT, so it's not just that I have lower standards. I will say with ROP, if you're not someone to be swayed by how gorgeous it looks, that won't help. It does look absolutely stunning and I really do feel like I am back in Middle-Earth when I watch it. It probably gets more goodwill from me than it deserves from that alone!
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TheThorne
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Post by TheThorne on Sept 8, 2022 16:29:45 GMT 1
I liked Wheel Of Time , the first episode was worrying but it got better and the first book is weaker anyway, they get much better and hopefully so will WOT.
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Post by greendemon on Sept 8, 2022 16:39:43 GMT 1
Admittedly I haven't read a WoT book yet - partly because the thought of embarking on such a long series has always been a bit offputting but also because I thought it would be nice to watch something for once and not be hampered by the whole 'tHiS iSn'T lIkE tHe bOoKs' thing. I've heard similar things from those who have read it but the ending seemed to put a lot of people off and I feel like more than a little of the ROP scepticism has come from that show being used as 'proof' that Amazon can't do a good fantasy series.
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TheThorne
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Post by TheThorne on Sept 8, 2022 16:52:45 GMT 1
Admittedly I haven't read a WoT book yet - partly because the thought of embarking on such a long series has always been a bit offputting but also because I thought it would be nice to watch something for once and not be hampered by the whole 'tHiS iSn'T lIkE tHe bOoKs' thing. I've heard similar things from those who have read it but the ending seemed to put a lot of people off and I feel like more than a little of the ROP scepticism has come from that show being used as 'proof' that Amazon can't do a good fantasy series. Yes but it had a lot of hate before it was even screened but then that’s the norm now.
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Post by Jordan on Sept 9, 2022 16:20:30 GMT 1
Good gosh episode 3 is a bore How much time are they really going to spend on world building and set-up? I demand a plot! Speaking of time... I can already tell I'm really going to hate how much they've condensed time down. I appreciate they had an impossible job due to the lifespan of men compared to elves... but I just don't like it. I'd started the series thinking it was set X number of years before the events shown at the start of Fellowship, and now in episode 3 I'm completely whiplashed with the reshuffling. If they were going to commit to changing the timeline they should have just made it abundantly clear... e.g. X number of years before [event] right at the start so those of us a little familiar with the high level lore wouldn't be so jerked about.
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Post by S1m on Sept 9, 2022 19:40:59 GMT 1
I haven't watched ep3 yet but I thought they had established how long ago this is set? Not on screen like House of the Dragon, but certainly in surrounding materials?
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TheThorne
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Post by TheThorne on Sept 10, 2022 7:11:12 GMT 1
Good gosh episode 3 is a bore  How much time are they really going to spend on world building and set-up? I demand a plot! Good luck with that , I see newspapers are starting to give the show bad reviews after it’s initial universal praise , Telegraph hammered Ep3. Will watch it later.
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Post by greendemon on Sept 10, 2022 11:02:15 GMT 1
At this point I'm going to wait for the rest of the show to be out before watching any more.
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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Sept 10, 2022 11:29:34 GMT 1
Probably better to stop reading about every little thing that is wrong with an episode before watching it. A lot of it you wouldn't even notice if you weren't alerted to it and looking out for it before you watched an episode. I try and avoid as many spoilers as I can but even I cant avoid the anount of drivel rammed down my throat on social media from people comparing it to HOD in a weird its not as good as HOD and i can only like 1 thing therefore ROP is sh*t kinda way people do, or critics reviewing every episode before it's even out and plastering it all over socials, you don't even need to search it out, it's rammed down your throat or fan boys going over the top with negativity. They have robbed everyone of a pure untainted viewing experience so I have tried to cut everything off and really enjoyed episode 3. Slow is fine with me. I could watch 500 episodes of beautiful world/character building.
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Post by Jordan on Sept 10, 2022 11:46:45 GMT 1
A comparison to HotD and GoT is completely justified - Rings of Power is quite literally a Jeff Bezos vanity project where he, quite literally, wanted to create 'the new Game of Thrones' on Amazon.
Also they aren't 'spoilers' if the episode has aired. That's just people talking about television. If you're late watching an episode, you can only spoil it for yourself. No one has robbed anyone of anything.
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Post by greendemon on Sept 10, 2022 11:47:21 GMT 1
Yes, I've been avoiding spoilers and things as much as I can and only read a couple of balanced reviews. I don't like watching shows an episode once a week and with the slow build it will probably be more enjoyable binged at the end anyway. It's going to be tricky dodging all the spoilers and commentary until then - especially as we're trying to do the same thing with HOTD - but ultimately necessary to appreciate either show properly. I'm also not overly bothered by the slow pacing - in a way it feels true to Tolkien as he was much more interested in worldbuilding than telling a story. I still have faith that it will go somewhere. Of course if by the middle of October I've seen everything and the pace doesn't pick up, I won't be too impressed
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