Pablo
Member
*With Great Power comes Great Responsibilty*
Posts: 8,470
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Post by Pablo on Aug 2, 2024 0:29:43 GMT 1
Italian women's boxer Angela Carini got defeated in just 46 seconds by her biological male opponent, Algeria's Imane Khelif, after she decided to quit to save her life. This is not only seriously unfair, but it should be illegal. Could be interesting tomorrow with a Taiwanese boxer fighting with similar circumstances.
It's going to be a subject that will be hard to defend if the same thing happens tomorrow but especially if either of them win the gold. Just sad it took someone to sacrifice her match to highlight this.
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Post by Shireblogger on Aug 2, 2024 7:09:25 GMT 1
Anyone else see Bethany Shriever in the BMX racing heats ? Totally dominant. Let's hope she can carry that form through the semi-finals (7:15pm) and into the final (8:50pm).
Meanwhile, Emma Wilson is guaranteed a Windsurfing medal after becoming one of three qualifiers for the final. Fingers crossed there is the right sort of wind off Marseille for the race to take place today. (Scheduled for just after 1pm).
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Post by greendemon on Aug 2, 2024 11:14:21 GMT 1
Italian women's boxer Angela Carini got defeated in just 46 seconds by her biological male opponent, Algeria's Imane Khelif, after she decided to quit to save her life. This is not only seriously unfair, but it should be illegal. Could be interesting tomorrow with a Taiwanese boxer fighting with similar circumstances.
It's going to be a subject that will be hard to defend if the same thing happens tomorrow but especially if either of them win the gold. Just sad it took someone to sacrifice her match to highlight this.
The thing is though, Dan's post is inaccurate. She is NOT 'biologically male'. She has a naturally occurring disorder which causes her to have higher levels of testosterone than most women. Calling her 'biologically male' is not only inaccurate, but potentially very dangerous for her because transgender identity is illegal in Algeria, and she is NOT trans. I've seen loads of people online saying she has XY chromosomes but as far as I can tell that hasn't been confirmed anywhere reliable by anyone who actually knows what they are talking about. Now whether her higher testosterone gives her an unfair advantage is a separate issue. In competitive sports having biological differences gives you an advantage that neither you nor your competitors can do anything about, e.g. Michael Phelps' arm length, basketball players who are 7ft tall, etc. And no-one would argue seriously that they shouldn't be allowed to compete against their peers because of their unfair advantage. I grant you this is a little stickier because in boxing being stronger means you're more likely to seriously injure someone, and that makes this a somewhat more complicated issue. But Imane Khelif was born female with female genitalia and is NOT 'biologically male'. Possibly she is intersex - that category of people that transphobes would like you believe doesn't exist, because every single person can be neatly sorted into a 'man' or 'woman' bucket.
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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Aug 2, 2024 12:50:58 GMT 1
An unfair advantage in combat sports is more than a little different than swimming though, for as start a man that is 50.8kg can't fight a man that is 52.25kg because the advantage is deemed too great, them are the fine margins when it comes to safety.
And actually Imane Khelif was disqualified from last year's Women's World Championships due to failing eligibility criteria with a statement coming from that event reading
"Based on DNA tests, we identified a number of athletes who tried to trick their colleagues into posing as women. According to the results of the tests, it was proved that they have XY chromosomes. Such athletes were excluded from competition,"
The rules for the Olympics are different with the International Olympic Committee spokesperson saying "Everyone competing in the women’s category is complying with the competition eligibility rules," he said. "They are women in their passport", The IOC, which is overseeing the boxing competition in Paris, does not test for gender so they don't even know.
"On 24 March 2023, IBA disqualified athletes Lin Yu-ting and Imane Khelif from the IBA Women’s World Boxing Championships New Delhi 2023," the IBA said. "This disqualification was a result of their failure to meet the eligibility criteria for participating in the women’s competition, as set and laid out in the IBA Regulations. This decision, made after a meticulous review, was extremely important and necessary to uphold the level of fairness and utmost integrity of the competition."
"Point to note, the athletes did not undergo a testosterone examination but were subject to a separate and recognized test, whereby the specifics remain confidential," the IBA statement continues. "This test conclusively indicated that both athletes did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria and were found to have competitive advantages over other female competitors."
The standard test used in boxing to determine gender category was always a one time cheek swab for a DNA test, so it is safe to assume they defaulted back to what has always been their standardised test until wokism took over and it became unacceptable to test for gender based on their gender, these tests are now confidential so you wont find their medical records online.
Clearly it is a person with all the advantages a bloke has punching women in the face whatever the reasons, if people are so big on "rights" how about supporting the rights of women that have spent 4 years of their life dedicating themselves to this Olympics only to get punched in the face by someone that has the unfair advantage of testosterone, chromosomes, internal testicles, multi gender disorder, whatever it is, the IOC needs to do better to protect its female athletes especially in events that involve getting punched in the head
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Post by tommie on Aug 2, 2024 13:09:20 GMT 1
We don't know exactly what condition Imane Khalif has, but the low odds are that it's similar to Caster Semenya - namely a condition that causes blockage of DHT hormone under the development, which can cause the genitalia at birth to resemble female genitalia and thus gets mis-sexed. However, they still have XY-chromosomes, internal testicles, their body still produces testosterone and will be drawn towards developing as male, which will become quite apparent during puberty. For all intents and purposes they're biologically males who can't process a specific hormone (DHT).
Unfortunately, I think some countries, especially those that don't have a lot of female athletes for obvious reasons, use this loophole as they'll have been mis-sexed at birth, thus officially "females". But the likelihood is that even in Algeria they would've been able to diagnose this condition during puberty because it would've been obvious, or at the very least when Khalif started doing professional boxing and failed sex tests.
TL;DR - Khalif likely isn't female with "unusually" high testosterone levels - they're male with normal levels of testosterone. IOC should've never allowed this to happen as it does a disservice to all involved.
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 13:21:39 GMT 1
Bryony Page wins gold on the trampoline!
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Post by greendemon on Aug 2, 2024 13:28:41 GMT 1
We don't know exactly what condition Imane Khalif has, but the low odds are that it's similar to Caster Semenya - namely a condition that causes blockage of DHT hormone under the development, which can cause the genitalia at birth to resemble female genitalia and thus gets mis-sexed. However, they still have XY-chromosomes, internal testicles, their body still produces testosterone and will be drawn towards developing as male, which will become quite apparent during puberty. For all intents and purposes they're biologically males who can't process a specific hormone (DHT). Unfortunately, I think some countries, especially those that don't have a lot of female athletes for obvious reasons, use this loophole as they'll have been mis-sexed at birth, thus officially "females". But the likelihood is that even in Algeria they would've been able to diagnose this condition during puberty because it would've been obvious, or at the very least when Khalif started doing professional boxing and failed sex tests. TL;DR - Khalif likely isn't female with "unusually" high testosterone levels - they're male with normal levels of testosterone. IOC should've never allowed this to happen as it does a disservice to all involved. Chromosomal sex is only one measure though, and even that has only been repeated by one source. She was born female with female characteristics and raised female. Also, as far as I'm aware she also uses she/her pronouns.
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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Aug 2, 2024 14:04:22 GMT 1
Chromosomal sex is the only measure that matters when competing in a sport that categorises competitors into the right chromosomal sex categories for competition level sport, why would incorrectly filled out paperwork at birth or their preferred pronouns matter in this instance? This isn't about making them feel nice and included, it is about eligibility and IBA tests conclusively concluded that they did not meet the required necessary eligibility criteria.
Her right to identify as a woman in her personal life based on all the reasons you mention is fair enough but their right to compete in a category of sport she isn't and shouldn't be eligible for are completely different things. The IOC has failed, they should've been firm with the rules and we wouldn't be talking about this, pandering and sitting on the fence has led to a lot of negativity towards an athlete over something that isn't their fault as a result
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Post by Shireblogger on Aug 2, 2024 14:37:20 GMT 1
Oh great. Another thread highjacked by a gender argument.
subhuman will be delighted he's stirred up the same hornets nest again.
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 14:42:06 GMT 1
TEAM SHOWJUMPING GOLD FOR GB
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Pablo
Member
*With Great Power comes Great Responsibilty*
Posts: 8,470
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Post by Pablo on Aug 2, 2024 14:54:47 GMT 1
The thing is though is the Algerian boxer competed in the last Olympics in Tokyo but lost in the QF that time to the eventual Olympic champion. OK she may have won a few medals the last couple of years but she's not exactly dominating the class unlike Caster Semenya did.
AFAIK so far it's only the 1 boxer that has stood up against the Algerian publicly and at the end of the day, it's a different competition organised by a different governing body.
As I said before, if either of the affected boxers win gold in their class, then I'm sure firmer questions will be asked to the IOC.
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 14:55:18 GMT 1
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 14:59:42 GMT 1
GB's 2012 gold medal winning showjumping team: Nick Skelton Scott Brash Ben Maher Peter Charles
GB's 2024 gold medal winning showjumping team: Scott Brash Ben Maher Harry Charles (son of Peter Charles)
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 15:05:27 GMT 1
Teams that have won a medal, day-by-day: (after day 5) DAY 1 Australia Belgium Canada China Fiji France Germany Great Britain Hong Kong Hungary Italy Japan Kazakhstan Mongolia South Africa South Korea Spain Sweden Tunisia United States DAY 2 Brazil Egypt India Kosovo Mexico Moldova Poland Uzbekistan DAY 3 Azerbaijan Croatia Ireland Romania Slovakia Switzerland Turkiye Ukraine DAY 4 Georgia Guatemala New Zealand North Korea Serbia Slovenia Tajikistan DAY 5 Argentina Austria Greece Netherlands 47 teams have won a medal so far.
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Pablo
Member
*With Great Power comes Great Responsibilty*
Posts: 8,470
|
Post by Pablo on Aug 2, 2024 15:13:49 GMT 1
Anyone else see Bethany Shriever in the BMX racing heats ? Totally dominant. Let's hope she can carry that form through the semi-finals (7:15pm) and into the final (8:50pm). I heard she set a new course record during her heats. Really impressive. Strange the women take a different flatter line in the middle of the course, whereas the men take the higher one. Must be a rule I've missed.
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 15:58:39 GMT 1
Day 5 points table: (* = first points) 1. France 65 2. China 51 3. Australia 48 4. Great Britain 46 5. United States 45 6. Germany 37 7. Netherlands 32 8. Italy 27 9. Japan 25 10. Switzerland 24 11. Hungary 23 12. Spain 15 13. Canada 14 14. Brazil 13 15. Ukraine 12 16. Poland 11 17. South Korea 10 18. Austria 9 18. Portugal 9 20. Argentina 8 20. Croatia 8 20. Georgia 8 20. Guatemala 8 20. Romania 8 20. Sweden 8 26. New Zealand 7 26. North Korea 7 28. Hong Kong 6 29. Belgium 5 29. Bermuda 5 * 29. Colombia 5 * 29. Czechia 5 29. Greece 5 29. Iran 5 * 29. Slovakia 5 36. Chile 4 * 36. Estonia 4 36. Mexico 4 39. Andorra 3 * 39. Egypt 3 41. Bulgaria 2 41. Kazakhstan 2 41. Latvia 2 * 41. United Arab Emirates 2 * 45. Norway 1 45. Philippines 1 * 45. Singapore 1 * Overall top 10: 1. France 234 2. United States 222 3. China 215 4. Great Britain 174 5. Australia 167 6. Italy 149 7. Japan 136 8. Germany 121 9. South Korea 109 10. Canada 99 70 teams have scored points.
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 16:09:11 GMT 1
GB 2024 v VIRTUAL MEDAL TABLE (after day 5) Gold: 6-4 Silver: 6-6 Bronze: 5-7 Total: 17-17
GB 2024 v GB 2020 Gold: 6-5 Silver: 6-6 Bronze: 5-5 Total: 17-16
GB 2024 v GB 2016 Gold: 6-3 Silver: 6-3 Bronze: 5-6 Total: 17-12
GB 2024 v GB 2012 Gold: 6-2 Silver: 6-3 Bronze: 5-4 Total: 17-9
GB 2024 v GB 2008 Gold: 6-2 Silver: 6-2 Bronze: 5-3 Total: 17-7
GB 2024 v GB 2004 Gold: 6-1 Silver: 6-2 Bronze: 5-4 Total: 17-7
GB 2024 v GB 2000 Gold: 6-2 Silver: 6-5 Bronze: 5-2 Total: 17-9
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Post by rubcale on Aug 2, 2024 16:11:50 GMT 1
Medal Rush - it's great!
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Post by Panda on Aug 2, 2024 16:13:16 GMT 1
DAY 6 GOLD MEDAL EVENTS:
ATHLETICS 20km Walk (W) 20km Walk (M)
CANOEING K1 Slalom (M)
FENCING Team Foil (W)
GYMNASTICS All-Around (W)
JUDO 100kg (M) 78kg (W)
ROWING Double Sculls (W) Double Sculls (M) Four (W) Four (M)
SAILING
Skiff (M)
Skiff (W)
SHOOTING 50m Rifle 3 Positions (M)
SWIMMING 200m Butterfly (W) 200m Backstroke (M) 200m Breaststroke (W) 4x200m Freestyle Relay (W)
==================================================
VIRTUAL MEDAL TABLE PREDICTION:
Gold: Women's Four, Men's Four
Silver: Joe Clarke
Bronze: none
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Post by Shireblogger on Aug 2, 2024 16:13:26 GMT 1
GB 2024 (after day 5) GB 2024 v GB 2020 Total: 17-16 GB 2024 v GB 2016 Total: 17-12 GB 2024 v GB 2012 Total: 17-9 GB 2024 v GB 2008 Total: 17-7 GB 2024 v GB 2004 Total: 17-7 That's remarkable progression.
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