Alternative league structure?

[Panda]

The system we have in England is somewhat unique with five national divisions at the top of the league system before any regionalisation comes into play. It makes it much harder for teams to progress up the pyramid, compared to other countries, where teams have risen from obscurity up to the top flight, and in some cases European football, in a short space of time.

Our system has been in place for so long, it's unlikely anything will change anytime soon but I thought it would be interesting to look at other countries' structures and see how things would look if they were applied to England.

More coming soon...


English system: 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-6-14-17

Italian system: 1-1-2-2-9-28

Spanish system: 1-1-4-18-39

German system: 1-1-1-3-11 changing to 1-1-1-5-14 from next season

French system: 1-1-1-4-8-22

[Shireblogger]

Interesting discussion point MrH.

I think I'm right in saying attendances are larger in the English lower leagues than anywhere else, as are other revenue streams (such as sponsorship). This means that lower league clubs should be able to support greater travelling costs, and don't need as many local derbies to sustain themselves.

Furthermore, England is smaller than France, Germany, Italy or Spain. It is rare for a club to have to travel more than 4 hours to fulfil a fixture, and the majority happen within 2-3 hours travelling time.

The slower rate of progression upwards means that clubs can adjust to their higher league position more gradually. This applies to the quality of playing staff, finances and infrastructure (stadia, medical & training facilities, scouting networks, etc.) In theory, less of a boom and bust cycle. I'm sure there are several clubs to have moved rapidly upwards on the continent, and then disappear completely as a result of over-extension, although I'd struggle to name any if pressed. Although plenty of clubs have gone into receivership, its a long time since one from the top 4 English divisions disappeared completely. (Was it Maidstone Utd, or maybe the earlier version of Aldershot ?)

Thus, I'd argue for the status quo in the upper echelons. There's probably a case for regionalisation to sprout faster from the BSB downwards - e.g. 1-1-1-1-1-3-6-18-54-162.

[suedehead]

A number of teams in the Conference leagues struggle with travelling costs. It is particularly bad for some of the teams in Conference North such as Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford facing trips to places like Workington and Blyth. It would make sense to revert to the old Division 3 North and South which was in place until (I think) 1958 with further regionalisation below that. I won't be holding my breath though.

[Shireblogger]

Dec 21, 2011 18:03:41 GMT 1 suedehead said:

A number of teams in the Conference leagues struggle with travelling costs. It is particularly bad for some of the teams in Conference North such as Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford facing trips to places like Workington and Blyth. It would make sense to revert to the old Division 3 North and South which was in place until (I think) 1958 with further regionalisation below that. I won't be holding my breath though.

Yes, I agree that regionalisation should be greater by the time we get to clubs like these. The current south eastern dominance of the Conference 2nd tier makes the north / south split absurdly far south.

[Paddy]

Dec 21, 2011 18:03:41 GMT 1 suedehead said:

A number of teams in the Conference leagues struggle with travelling costs. It is particularly bad for some of the teams in Conference North such as Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford facing trips to places like Workington and Blyth. It would make sense to revert to the old Division 3 North and South which was in place until (I think) 1958 with further regionalisation below that. I won't be holding my breath though.

This was going to my point that BSN and BSS can be geographically mis-interpreted. Bishop playing in BSN is silly when they have to travel up to Gateshead for instance, when Gateshead were/will/theoretically would be in BSN. When Bishop have Chelmsford literally 10 miles from them and they play in BSS!

We still do get quick teams up the ranks, AFC Wimbledon springs to mind, from non-existent to 4th tier in 7 years.

[Paddy]

The only quick team on the continent I can think of is villareal who went from nothing to European football in 7 years. 94-01 I think it was?

Otherwise there is still dominance in the top tiers.

[suedehead]

Hoffenheim in Germany had a pretty swift ascent as well.

[vastar iner]

Funny thing is though that if you look back 100 years, of the 18 teams that retained their place in the top flight, 12 are still there...our system is surprisingly resilient to change.

[Panda]

UNDER THE ITALIAN SYSTEM (indicative team allocations based on current league positions)

1-1-2-2-9-28

LEVEL 1
PREMIER LEAGUE - unchanged


LEVEL 2
CHAMPIONSHIP - unchanged


LEVEL 3
League One and League Two become LEAGUE ONE NORTH and LEAGUE ONE SOUTH

LEAGUE ONE NORTH
Sheffield Wednesday
Sheffield United
Huddersfield Town
Carlisle United
Notts County
Preston North End
Bury
Oldham Athletic
Hartlepool United
Tranmere Rovers
Scunthorpe United
Rochdale
Chesterfield
Burton Albion
Rotherham United
Port Vale
Morecambe
Accrington Stanley
Crewe Alexandra
Macclesfield Town
Bradford City
Walsall
Shrewsbury Town
Hereford United

LEAGUE ONE SOUTH
Charlton Athletic
Milton Keynes Dons
Brentford
Stevenage
Colchester United
AFC Bournemouth
Leyton Orient
Exeter City
Yeovil Town
Wycombe Wanderers
Crawley Town
Southend United
Cheltenham Town
Swindon Town
Gillingham
Oxford United
Torquay United
Aldershot Town
Wimbledon
Bristol Rovers
Barnet
Northampton Town
Plymouth Argyle
Dagenham & Redbridge


LEVEL 4
Teams from the Conference, Conference North and Conference South form LEAGUE TWO NORTH and LEAGUE TWO SOUTH

LEAGUE TWO NORTH
Wrexham
Fleetwood Town
Southport
York City
Gateshead
Mansfield Town
Darlington
Barrow
Grimsby Town
Lincoln City
Stockport County
Alfreton Town
Hyde
Stalybridge Celtic
Guiseley
Nuneaton Town
Gainsborough Trinity
Halifax Town
Worcester City
Corby Town
Altrincham
Droylsden
Boston United
Colwyn Bay

LEAGUE TWO SOUTH
Luton Town
Kidderminster Harriers
Cambridge United
Forest Green Rovers
Braintree Town
Ebbsfleet United
Tamworth
Telford United
Newport County
Kettering Town
Hayes & Yeading United
Bath City
Woking
Welling United
Chelmsford City
Dartford
Sutton United
Dover Athletic
Dorchester Town
Basingstoke Town
Weston-super-Mare
Eastleigh
Truro City
Tonbridge Angels


LEVEL 5
9 divisions - one for each English region with teams taken from current steps 2, 3, 4 and 5 of non-league pyramid (levels 6-9).

NORTH WEST CONFERENCE
1 Workington
2 Vauxhall Motors
3 Chester
4 Northwich Victoria
5 Chorley
6 Marine
7 FC United of Manchester
8 Nantwich Town
9 Kendal Town
10 Ashton United
11 Burscough
12 Curzon Ashton
13 Skelmersdale United
14 Fylde
15 Lancaster City
16 Woodley Sports
17 Witton Albion
18 Salford City
19 Trafford
20 Bamber Bridge

NORTH EAST CONFERENCE
1 Blyth Spartans
2 Durham City
3 Sunderland Ryhope CA
4 West Auckland Town
5 Whitley Bay
6 Dunton UTS
7 Spennymoor Town
8 Newton Aycliffe
9 Bedlington Terriers
10 Newcastle Benfield
11 Bishop Auckland
12 Ashington
13 Shildon
14 Norton & Stockton Ancients
15 Billingham Synthonia
16 Marske United
17 Guisborough Town
18 South Shields
19 Consett
20 Jarrow Roofing

YORKSHIRE & HUMBER CONFERENCE
1 Harrogate Town
2 Bradford Park Avenue
3 North Ferriby United
4 Frickley Athletic
5 Stocksbridge Park Steels
6 Whitby Town
7 Grantham Town
8 Stamford
9 Sheffield
10 Goole
11 Garforth Town
12 Lincoln United
13 Brigg Town
14 Harrogate Railway Athletic
15 Ossett Town
16 Wakefield
17 Ossett Albion
18 Tadcaster Albion
19 Bridlington Town
20 Scarborough Athletic

WEST MIDLANDS CONFERENCE
1 Solihull Moors
2 Hednesford Town
3 Rushall Olympic
4 Stafford Rangers
5 Chasetown
6 Leamington
7 Stourbridge
8 Redditch United
9 Evesham United
10 Sutton Coldfield Town
11 Leek Town
12 Newcastle Town
13 Romulus
14 Market Drayton Town
15 Kidsgrove Athletic
16 Halesowen Town
17 Bedworth United
18 Rugby Town
19 Stourport Swifts
20 Coventry Sphinx

EAST MIDLANDS CONFERENCE
1 Hinckley United
2 Eastwood Town
3 Worksop Town
4 Matlock Town
5 Mickleover Sports
6 Buxton
7 Brackley Town
8 Barwell
9 Carlton Town
10 Ilkeston
11 Hucknall Town
12 Loughborough Dynamo
13 New Mills
14 Coalville Town
15 Belper Town
16 Rainworth Miners Welfare
17 Shepshed Dynamo
18 Quorn
19 Retford United
20 Gresley

EASTERN CONFERENCE
1 Histon
2 Bishop's Stortford
3 Boreham Wood
4 Thurrock
5 Billericay Town
6 Lowestoft Town
7 Bury Town
8 Canvey Island
9 Aveley
10 Concord Rangers
11 East Thurrock United
12 Cambridge City
13 St. Albans City
14 Hitchin Town
15 Bedford Town
16 Arlesey Town
17 Hemel Hempstead Town
18 Needham Market
19 Grays Athletic
20 Leiston

SOUTH WEST CONFERENCE
1 Gloucester City
2 Salisbury City
3 Chippenham Town
4 Frome Town
5 Weymouth
6 Swindon Supermarine
7 Cirencester Town
8 Bideford
9 Paulton Rovers
10 Cinderford Town
11 Mangotsfield United
12 Bishops Cleeve
13 Bridgwater Town
14 Poole Town
15 Tiverton Town
16 Yate Town
17 Taunton Town
18 Clevedon Town
19 Wimborne Town
20 Willand Rovers

SOUTH EAST CONFERENCE
1 Eastbourne Borough
2 Havant & Waterlooville
3 Farnborough
4 Maidenhead United
5 Staines Town
6 Lewes
7 Margate
8 Hastings United
9 Leatherhead
10 Horsham
11 Totton
12 Oxford City
13 Chesham United
14 Banbury United
15 Bashley
16 Bognor Regis Town
17 Whitehawk
18 Folkestone Invicta
19 Worthing
20 Maidstone United

LONDON CONFERENCE
1 Bromley
2 Hampton & Richmond Borough
3 Hornchurch
4 Metropolitan Police
5 Cray Wanderers
6 Hendon
7 Carshalton Athletic
8 Kingstonian
9 Wingate & Finchley
10 Wealdstone
11 Harrow Borough
12 Tooting & Mitcham United
13 Dulwich Hamlet
14 Enfield Town
15 Uxbridge
16 AFC Hayes
17 Northwood
18 Corinthian-Casuals
19 Romford
20 Thamesmead Town


LEVEL 6
28 divisions - 2 for each of the current step 5 leagues

[Panda]

Dec 21, 2011 18:01:46 GMT 1 Shireblogger said:

Thus, I'd argue for the status quo in the upper echelons. There's probably a case for regionalisation to sprout faster from the BSB downwards - e.g. 1-1-1-1-1-3-6-18-54-162.

Given the very low probability of anything changing in the Football League, I'd like to see a structure of 1-1-1-1-1-4-8 followed by the existing leagues at step 5 and below, which would now move up a step by axing the pointless Conference North/South. The extra league at steps 2/3 of the pyramid would cover the Midlands and stop the Northern Premier League being diluted.

[suedehead]

How do promotion / relegation between steps 4 and 5 work in Italy?

[Panda]

Dec 21, 2011 22:01:11 GMT 1 suedehead said:

How do promotion / relegation between steps 4 and 5 work in Italy?

Winners of each step 5 league are promoted (or 2nd placed teams if winners don't meet promotion criteria).

Teams finishing 2nd-5th in each division go into an English-style playoff system (although the ties are played over one leg with the higher-placed team playing at home. If games are level after extra-time, the higher-placed team is declared the winner) until there is one team left from each of the nine divisions.

The nine surviving teams are grouped together into three groups of three. The three winners go into a mini knockout tournament, along with the winners of the Coppa Italia Serie D (the Italian eqivalent of the FA Trophy). They have semi-finals and a final with the winner promoted alongside the nine division winners.

The bottom three in each step 4 division are relegated plus the losers in a series of relegation playoffs.

[suedehead]

Thanks By the time that's all over, it must be time for the new season to start!

[Panda]

It's an extra nine games for the playoff finalists but the divisions at that level have a maximum of 20 teams, so over the whole season it's still less games than a playoff team from the Championship, League One or League Two in England.

[Elmer]

Absolutely fascinating thread Gents. One must beware though that if its made too easy to climb to the top then it's just as easy for a club that's hit hard times to disappear completely without trace.

[Panda]

I'm currently working on a new proposal on this subject. I'll post it up here in the next few days.

Recent happenings in the non-league pyramid have convinced me more than ever that the system currently in place is both deeply flawed and downright unfair. I'll be interested to hear your opinions after I post my proposal for the structure of football in this country.

[suedehead]

I look forward to seeing your ideas. I shall stick with what I said when this thread was started in saying that regionalisation should start at a higher level than it does now and that having only two regions below Conference Premier is ridiculous. It just does not make economic sense for Bishop's Stortford and Workington to be in the same league with gates in the hundreds.

[Shireblogger]

Your ideas are always stimulating. I await the latest with interest.

[Panda]

OK, first a bit of background info on events of the past week. It's no secret (it's even been discussed in this thread) that there is a problem of geographical shift towards the south of the country, resulting in the ludicrous situation of clubs based in Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire playing in the Conference North.

Unfortunately, the FA seem unwilling to acknowledge the problem. There are a number of possible reasons for this:

• Gross incompetence
  
• Southern bias
  
• Punishing northern leagues and their clubs for a perceived lack of integration in the pyramid system in years gone by
  
• They simply don't see it as a problem

I'm tempted to think it's a mixture of all four.  There have been signs in recent years that the FA have absolutely no idea of the never-ending struggle non-league clubs face just to survive and their attempt a couple of years to reduce the number of leagues at step 5 of the pyramid from 14 to 12 all but proved it. Thankfully, the leagues themselves rejected the FA's plans with the contempt they deserved.  In addition, the creation of the Conference North/South has been incredibly damaging to non-league football, serving only to further narrow the top of the pyramid and increase clubs' travelling costs.

Next season, divisons at step 3 of the pyramid will increase to 24 clubs, as will the two step 4 divisions of the Isthmian League, which covers London and the South East. In order to cover the extra places available higher up, the FA said it would allow some runners-up at step 5 to be promoted on a points-per-game basis, in addition to the division winners. However, only runners-up in certain southern-based leagues would be able to go up on this basis.

However, some clubs higher up resigned from their leagues, creating more vacancies and there was hope the FA may allow runners-up from other step 5 leagues to be promoted.  One of these was Spennymoor Town. Spennymoor won the Northern League in 2010, 2011 and 2012 and this season finished runners-up behind the re-formed Darlington, scoring 109 points in the process. They also won the FA Vase. They had the highest points-per-game ratio of all the step 5 runners-up. There could be no disputing that they deserved to be promoted on merit. Instead, five southern-based runners-up were promoted, along with Guernsey. That left one place available at step 4. The FA had the option to promote Spennymoor, who had more than proven their credentials, and double the number of opponents within 50 miles Darlington would have next season, or reprieve Walton Casuals, who finished bottom of Division 1 South of the Isthmian League, scoring 37 points. Obviously, they gave the place to Walton Casuals, and so despite scoring over 100 points, losing just 3 league games all season and winning at Wembley, Spennymoor find themselves denied promotion purely because of geography.

Critics might say they had their chance for the previous three years when they won their league but hadn't applied for promotion. They may also say they didn't apply in the past because they were happy to remain a big fish in a small pond but the reality is due to the vacuum of north east clubs higher up the pyramid, you can't blame a club for not wanting to take the massive step of promotion when they may struggle to find more than a handful of opponents within 100 miles. This is at the EIGHTH tier of English football.

Therefore, it is my conclusion that the pyramid is both flawed and unfair. I could go on, but I feel the events of last week and the process that has led up to them over the years proves my point perfectly.

So how do we fix the problem?  That comes next...

[Panda]

THE SOLUTION

Putting aside the FA's incompetence and complete inability to come up with a system that is fair to clubs and leagues in all parts of the country, there are two main problems I see with the structure of football in England:

• Too many tiers
  
• Not enough regionalisation

The English football system has 11 levels - the 4 divisions of the Premier League and Football League and the 7 "steps" of the non-league pyramid. Any divisions below step 7 aren't considered part of the pyramid, even if they are part of leagues within the pyramid.

The creation of the Conference North/South in 2004 created an additional and unnecessary level to the pyramid. It also helped reduce regionalisation by suddenly having the second tier divided into just two areas, rather than three and meaning each tier was less regional than before. It also resulted in a large number of clubs suddenly finding themselves in divisions with larger geographical footprints, placing a huge strain on their finances due to travelling costs and lower numbers of visiting fans.

The current structure of English football is: 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-6-14-17-41

My proposal would see League One and League Two of the Football League become League One North and League One South. This kills two birds with one stone in that it regionalises the system at a much higher level - the 3rd tier, rather than the 6th.

The next step would see the Conference Premier abolished, leaving the Conference North and South as direct feeders into League One North and South. This would also eliminate another tier of the pyramid.

There would be a new Midlands League covering what would now be the 5th and 6th tiers, sitting alongside the existing Northern Premier, Southern and Isthmian Leagues. The Midlands League Premier Division would sit at the 5th tier, with East and West divisions at the 6th tier. The existance of this league would increase the number of Midlands clubs further up the pyramid and also stop the Northern Premier League from being diluted with Midlands clubs. This, in turn, would also allow more clubs from the North of England to participate at a higher level, particularly the North East, which under the current FA model will only have 3 clubs in the top 4 levels of the non-league pyramid next season (based on official government regional boundaries). This would also allow the NPL's two Division 1 leagues to be split on a more logical East/West basis, rather than the current North/South.

The existing leagues at the 9th, 10th and 11th tiers would remain as they are, except they would now be at the 7th, 8th and 9th tiers.  There would be a strong case for increasing the number of leagues at the 7th tier from 14 to 16, so one team from each league would be promoted, with 16 teams coming down.  The East Midlands and Cumbria would be possible areas for expansion.

These changes would give a structure of: 1-1-2-2-4-8-14-17-41

LEVEL 1
PREMIER LEAGUE (20 clubs) 3 relegated

LEVEL 2
CHAMPIONSHIP (24 clubs) 3 promoted, 4 relegated (running total number of clubs: 44)

LEVEL 3
LEAGUE ONE NORTH (24 clubs) 2 promoted, 2 relegated
LEAGUE ONE SOUTH (24 clubs) 2 promoted, 2 relegated (running total: 92)

LEVEL 4
CONFERENCE NORTH (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 4 relegated
CONFERENCE SOUTH (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 4 relegated (running total: 136)

LEVEL 5
NORTHERN PREMIER LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated
MIDLANDS LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated
SOUTHERN LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated
ISTHMIAN LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated (running total: 224)

LEVEL 6
NORTHERN PREMIER LEAGUE DIVISION 1 EAST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
NORTHERN PREMIER LEAGUE DIVISION 1 WEST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
MIDLANDS LEAGUE DIVISION 1 EAST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
MIDLANDS LEAGUE DIVISION 1 WEST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
SOUTHERN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 CENTRAL (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
SOUTHERN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 SOUTH & WEST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
ISTHMIAN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 NORTH (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated
ISTHMIAN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 SOUTH (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated (running total: 400)
1 club would be promoted automatically from each division, with a series of playoffs determining the other promotion places.

LEVEL 7
NORTHERN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 (20 clubs)
NORTHERN COUNTIES EAST LEAGUE PREMIER(20 clubs)
NORTH WEST COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
MIDLAND ALLIANCE (20 clubs)
EASTERN COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
SPARTAN SOUTH MIDLANDS LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
HELLENIC LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
UNITED COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
COMBINED COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
KENT LEAGUE (20 clubs)
ESSEX SENIOR LEAGUE (20 clubs)
SUSSEX COUNTY LEAGUE DIVISION 1 (20 clubs)
WESSEX LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs)
WESTERN LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) (running total: 680)
League champions promoted, or highest placed eligible club. Additional promotional places decided on a points-per-game basis, regardless of location.  Possible extension to 16 divisions would result in one team per league moving up.

LEVEL 8
17 divisions with a maximum of 20 clubs (maximum running total: 1020)

LEVEL 9
41 divisions with a maxium of 18 clubs - (some leagues at this level have temporary status within the pyramid and are due to be reviewed over a rolling 3-year cycle, so the number of leagues could vary each year) (maximum running total: 1758)

The total number of teams within the pyramid probably wouldn't be higher than it is now - the number this season was 1616 - but the idea is that all teams would find themselves playing at a level better suited to their ability and geographical location.

It's getting late now so tomorrow night, I'll post an example of what the division line-ups would look like under this system.