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Post by Panda on Jun 25, 2024 22:07:36 GMT 1
3rd place table: 1. Netherlands (Q) 3-4 (0) 2. Slovakia 2-3 (0) 3. Slovenia (Q) 3-3 (0) 4. Hungary 3-3 (-3) ------------------------ 5. Croatia 3-2 (-3) 6. Czech Republic 2-1 (-1)
Croatia are now eliminated. Hungary would've been through if England had found a winner against Slovenia.
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Post by Panda on Jun 25, 2024 22:10:57 GMT 1
Last 16 as it stands: Spain v Slovakia Germany v Denmark Portugal v Hungary France v Belgium Romania v Slovenia Austria v Turkiye England v Netherlands Switzerland v Italy
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Robbie
Member
*Funky!*
Posts: 25,671
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Post by Robbie on Jun 25, 2024 22:12:47 GMT 1
Another dull England match...
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Post by o on Jun 25, 2024 22:59:28 GMT 1
Pundits say Gordon and Palmer should have been on sooner? So you take off Foden and Saka earlier, who's in agreement with that? Bellingham was absolute garbage tonight, he was playing like he almost didn't want to be there, very bizarre after the Serbia game where he was so up for it? And it wasn't dull, it just wasn't great, but people seem to expect a 3-0 win every game, do they think we're Man City. Sooner we go out the better, than Gareth can leave, and you can get in whomever you think can do a better job, with a bang average squad.
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Post by Panda on Jun 25, 2024 23:05:41 GMT 1
Pundits say Gordon and Palmer should have been on sooner? So you take off Foden and Saka earlier, who's in agreement with that? Bellingham was absolute garbage tonight, he was playing like he almost didn't want to be there, very bizarre after the Serbia game where he was so up for it? And it wasn't dull, it just wasn't great, but people seem to expect a 3-0 win every game, do they think we're Man City. Sooner we go out the better, than Gareth can leave, and you can get in whomever you think can do a better job, with a bang average squad. It's far from a bang average squad though, that's why people are so frustrated. Bellingham was Player of the Season in Spain and won the Champions League. Foden was Player of the Year in England. Kane was top scorer in Germany. Rice and Saka were part of a team that almost won the Premier League. Yes, the defence is suspect and maybe that is why Southgate is so cautious but with the attacking talent England have, they are capable of producing a lot more.
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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Jun 25, 2024 23:27:51 GMT 1
Southgate makes them all look bang average thats a fact, he could have the Man City x11, it makes no difference, in fact he had Foden, Stones, Grealish and Walker from City, sprinkled with White, Rice, Saka who have almost pipped City to the league 2 years in a row now from Arsenal who play like City, add Rico Lewis who he decided was less useful than an injured Luke Shaw he could've had a starting 11 with 7/10 Pep/Arteta players, led by Kane who scored and assisted 50 goals last season and Bellingham that won the CL and Spanish league player of the year so better or on par with what City have
But Southgate turns upto interviews saying its hard to win because they don't have a Kalvin Phillips lol, this is our best and last chance to win anything major given it will likely be the last major tournament for some of our best players like Kane and Walker and the defenders coming through are suspect
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Pablo
Member
*With Great Power comes Great Responsibilty*
Posts: 8,465
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Post by Pablo on Jun 26, 2024 0:20:21 GMT 1
I hope England do get a top side like Netherlands in the last 16. Just a team who is willing to attack and win the game rather than these teams being stubbornly defensive, playing for a draw or attack on the counter. At least then you'd hope to see holes in the defence for the England attack to capitalise on and go on the counter themselves. Then I think we'll see how England play.
I thought Palmer and Gordon should have started tonight. Get some variety in the team at least and but that's not Southgate's way. Bellingham should have been rested or subbed as he was ineffective.
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Post by Shireblogger on Jun 26, 2024 7:26:23 GMT 1
England's defending has been excellent throughout this tournament. I don't understand why everyone is saying it is garbage. Marc Guehi has been their most consistent player so far.
There's no way on earth that Palmer and Gordon are better than Saka and Foden. Mainoo, when he came on, was less effective than Gallagher.
I agree that the lack of chances we are creating has been very disappointing. That's partly because our opponents have played such defensive football, and partly because our wing backs and midfielders seem to lack the confidence to try to take on opposing defenders, instead always playing safe with the short pass. I suspect the latter is driven by the absolute hammering they get from press, pundits and fans if they give the ball away too frequently.
Frankly, the howls of criticism are unwarranted. They won they group, and have conceded one goal in three games, against solid but unexceptional nations. (And let's not forget how brilliant that Denmark goal was - a truly world class strike from long range).
They've secured a last 16 match against a third placed team, and if they win that they play Italy, who really have been bad, or Switzerland, which would mean a pretty exciting match. They've avoided Spain, Germany, France and Portugal, who are the 2nd, 3rd, 4th and 5th favourites, until the Final. The bookies, who don't like to lose money and generally have a good grasp of what's happening, now have England as favourites (partly because of the favourable draw).
I don't think England will win the tournament, and I'm not sure they'll get beyond the quarter-finals. (Spain have looked the best team to me). I wish Southgate was a less conservative tactician. But I'm not one of the millions are armchair and tv critics who thinks they could do better.
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Post by Earl Purple on Jun 26, 2024 9:03:39 GMT 1
In 2004 under Sven we played free-flowing attacking football but gave away loads of goals. In our 4 games, we conceded 6, keeping a clean sheet against Switzerland but 2 each against France, Croatia and Portugal. David James was not a particularly good goalkeeper and our own FA shooting us in the foot with their extremely long banning of Rio Ferdinand. Otherwise that would have been there for the taking - in the end it was Greece who won it.
We can see how these managers have done since 1974:
Don Revie. Euro 76 failed to qualify, World Cup 78 failed to qualify Ron Greenwood. Euro 80 failed in group, World Cup 82 second group phase. Bobby Robson. Euro 84 failed to qualify, World Cup 86 quarter final, Euro 88 bottom of our group, World Cup 90 semi-final Graham Taylor: Euro 92 failed in group, World Cup 94 failed to qualify Terry Venables: Euro 96 semi-final (automatic qualification as hosts) Glenn Hoddle. World Cup 98 last 16, Bad start to qualification for Euro 2000 Kevin Keegan. Euro 2000 managed to qualify through playoff but lost in group Sven Goran Ericsson: World Cup 2002 quarter final, Euro 2004 quarter final, World Cup 2006 quarter final (at least he was consistent) Steve McClaren: Euro 2008 failed to qualify Fabio Capello: World Cup 2010 last 16 Roy Hodgson: Euro 2012 quarter final, World Cup 2014 bottom of group, Euro 2016 last 16 (losing to Iceland) Gareth Southgate: World Cup 2018 semi-final, Euro 2020 (played in 2021) runners-up, World Cup 2022 quarter final, Euro 2024 through group stage (still going)
In 1976 the Euro finals was just 4 teams. Qualification was 8 groups of 4 teams with only the winners going through, and they played a two-legged knockout round home and away to leave the 4 finalists. England came 2nd in their group to Czechoslovakia who went on to win it.
In 1978 qualification was groups with only the winners going through. England and Italy were in the same group and both won 2-0 at home against each other and won all their other games. Italy had the better goal-difference though against the other teams so they qualified and England did not.
In 1980, hosts Italy automatically qualified and the rest was 7 groups of 4 with winners going through, no knockout. England were in a 5 team group with Northern Ireland, Republic Of Ireland, Bulgaria and Denmark and qualified as group winners, with just one draw and 7 wins.
From 1980-92 Euros was 8 teams total. In 1980 the top of each group played the final whilst the runners-up played a 3rd-place playoff. 1984-92 it was 2 through each group into a semi-final. 1996-2012 it was 16 teams, 2 through each group then 3 rounds of knockout and 2016 onward the current format with 24 teams.
In 1982 the World Cup was 24 teams and qualification was a group with 2 teams progressing. England had a far worse qualification record than in 1977 losing away at Norway, Romania and Switzerland who all ended up below us on points as Hungary won the group but England actually did the double over them. The format of the tournament was 6 groups of 4 with 2 progressing to a second group phase of 3 teams with only one going through each group. In that group England had hosts Spain and West Germany and drew both games 0-0. As the Germans beat Spain 2-1 they won the group.
1984 was a group and Denmark got some revenge for the previous Euros winning the group above us after a 1-0 win at Wembley. England also drew 2-2 in Denmark when they equalised in the last minute and 0-0 at home against Greece.
From 1998 the World Cup became 32 teams.
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 9:20:36 GMT 1
England's defending has been excellent throughout this tournament. I don't understand why everyone is saying it is garbage. Marc Guehi has been their most consistent player so far. I don't think anyone is saying that. But the defence was identified as the biggest reason why England wouldn't win the tournament before it started, which again, is why it's come as something of a shock that the team's attacking play has been so poor. I agree Guehi has been very good, though he seems to have one howler in him every game that leads to a big chance for the opposition.
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Post by smokeyb on Jun 26, 2024 9:53:45 GMT 1
Is the problem with England not the media & betting companies saying England are "the favourites", "England have the best players in the competition", and so on, which builds up expectations, so they just need to turn up and win, when it comes down to how a team gells on the night, a bit off luck and the other teams having an off night.
You can have the best 11 players individually, but if you don't function as a unit you won't win.
At least Scotland had no expectations of doing well and we reached exactly where we deserved, bottom.
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Post by o on Jun 26, 2024 10:00:11 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know if the French, Italian and Belgium press and social media are slaughtering their teams as well, as they have looked very dull and boring and ineffective to me, but it's the English way. I totally agree with what Shireb says, it's not been the most exciting, but we are through as top of the group, let's see what the next game brings.
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Post by Razzle Dazzle on Jun 26, 2024 11:38:04 GMT 1
I'd be interested to know if the French, Italian and Belgium press and social media are slaughtering their teams as well, as they have looked very dull and boring and ineffective to me, but it's the English way. I totally agree with what Shireb says, it's not been the most exciting, but we are through as top of the group, let's see what the next game brings. My understanding is, they are getting dogs abuse too, especially in France, their own papers are going mental As for the bookies it is daft people betting on England to win that has made them favourites, the bookies don't decide who is favourites per say, there have been over double the bets on England to win than any other nation, so England are the favourites due to sheer number of bets placed. Odds then reduce so the bookies don't have to pay out as much money if England do win the tournament England 27% France 13% Germany 12% Portugal 12% Spain 8% Others under 7% Other factors do influence the odds a little bit, performance, easy upcoming fixtures, squad strength etc but if you took out betting trends I bet the odds of actually winning look more like France 5/1 Germany 6/1 Portugal 6/1 England 7/1 Spain 8/1 England cant not be favourites with that amount of bets lumped on them to win, their squad quality and the favourable draw
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 12:34:28 GMT 1
Is the problem with England not the media & betting companies saying England are "the favourites", "England have the best players in the competition", and so on, which builds up expectations, so they just need to turn up and win, when it comes down to how a team gells on the night, a bit off luck and the other teams having an off night. You can have the best 11 players individually, but if you don't function as a unit you won't win. At least Scotland had no expectations of doing well and we reached exactly where we deserved, bottom. I haven't heard anyone say England just need to turn up to win. In terms of the talent available, this is the best England team for a generation. They played well at the previous 3 tournaments under Southgate (when they weren't as strongly fancied) and with arguably a better squad this time around, it's understandable why expectations would be higher. And that's nonsense about Scotland. There was a lot of bluster pre-tournament that this would finally be the end of the group stage curse. If the tournament had taken place last summer, it might have happened for them but the drop-off in form from the win over Spain is alarming.
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Post by smokeyb on Jun 26, 2024 14:22:51 GMT 1
I remember in the 2000's hearing that this was the best generation of England players with Beckham, Scholes, Lampard, Gerrard & Rooney etc.
I have watched every world cup/euros since 1970, and England are always expected to win or at least reach semis, and they have come up short, except last 2 /3 tournaments where they did well.
The hype around 1996 was huge. They even had a song about it.
I don't believe in the Scotland hype either, I never thought they would qualify, they have a defeatest mentality, you have optimistic fans all over, I blame too much booze, Scotland have never looked liked qualifying ever, they lack belief unlike the Welsh & Irish who seem to over achieve, Scotland always under achieve.
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 14:35:35 GMT 1
The hype around 1996 was huge. They even had a song about it. But the whole point of Three Lions is about hope rather than expectation. Remembering past glories but also the heroic failures of years gone by. The "it's coming home" thing was about football itself rather than the trophy. The phrase being used by England fans to suggest they're going to win a tournament (in jest in the vast majority of cases) is a fairly recent development. And hey, they came pretty damn close in 1996...
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 14:43:17 GMT 1
For what it's worth, these are the latest odds:
Best price available. Pre-tournament odds in brackets.
9/2 England (3/1) 5/1 Spain (9/1) 11/2 France (4/1) 11/2 Germany (11/2) 7/1 Portugal (8/1) 18/1 Belgium (18/1) 18/1 Italy (18/1) 18/1 Netherlands (18/1) 25/1 Austria (80/1) 40/1 Switzerland (80/1) 75/1 Denmark (50/1) 100/1 Turkey (66/1) 200/1 Czech Republic (175/1) 200/1 Ukraine (125/1) 250/1 Romania (400/1) 300/1 Slovakia (500/1) 300/1 Slovenia (500/1) 400/1 Hungary (80/1) 1000/1 Georgia (750/1)
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 14:59:52 GMT 1
Having a browse of a few leading bookmakers in other countries and this is who they have as favourites:
FDJ (France) 4/1 England
Sisal (Italy) 4/1 England
Draftkings (USA) 17/4 England
Oddset (Denmark) 9/2 England
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 17:22:17 GMT 1
Last night at the Copa America: Group A: Peru 0-1 Canada Chile 0-1 Argentina Table: 1. Argentina (Q) 2-6 (+3) 2. Canada 2-3 (-1) 3. Chile 2-1 (-1) 4. Peru 2-1 (-1)
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Post by Panda on Jun 26, 2024 17:26:51 GMT 1
Slovakia take the lead against Romania, who drop from 1st to 4th.
As it stands: 1. Slovakia 6 (+1) 2. Belgium 4 (+1) 3. Ukraine 4 (-2) 4. Romania 3 (0)
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