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Post by Panda on Dec 21, 2011 17:18:30 GMT 1
The system we have in England is somewhat unique with five national divisions at the top of the league system before any regionalisation comes into play. It makes it much harder for teams to progress up the pyramid, compared to other countries, where teams have risen from obscurity up to the top flight, and in some cases European football, in a short space of time.
Our system has been in place for so long, it's unlikely anything will change anytime soon but I thought it would be interesting to look at other countries' structures and see how things would look if they were applied to England.
More coming soon...
English system: 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-6-14-17
Italian system: 1-1-2-2-9-28
Spanish system: 1-1-4-18-39
German system: 1-1-1-3-11 changing to 1-1-1-5-14 from next season
French system: 1-1-1-4-8-22
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Post by Shireblogger on Dec 21, 2011 18:01:46 GMT 1
Interesting discussion point MrH.
I think I'm right in saying attendances are larger in the English lower leagues than anywhere else, as are other revenue streams (such as sponsorship). This means that lower league clubs should be able to support greater travelling costs, and don't need as many local derbies to sustain themselves.
Furthermore, England is smaller than France, Germany, Italy or Spain. It is rare for a club to have to travel more than 4 hours to fulfil a fixture, and the majority happen within 2-3 hours travelling time. The slower rate of progression upwards means that clubs can adjust to their higher league position more gradually. This applies to the quality of playing staff, finances and infrastructure (stadia, medical & training facilities, scouting networks, etc.) In theory, less of a boom and bust cycle. I'm sure there are several clubs to have moved rapidly upwards on the continent, and then disappear completely as a result of over-extension, although I'd struggle to name any if pressed. Although plenty of clubs have gone into receivership, its a long time since one from the top 4 English divisions disappeared completely. (Was it Maidstone Utd, or maybe the earlier version of Aldershot ?)
Thus, I'd argue for the status quo in the upper echelons. There's probably a case for regionalisation to sprout faster from the BSB downwards - e.g. 1-1-1-1-1-3-6-18-54-162.
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Post by suedehead on Dec 21, 2011 18:03:41 GMT 1
A number of teams in the Conference leagues struggle with travelling costs. It is particularly bad for some of the teams in Conference North such as Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford facing trips to places like Workington and Blyth. It would make sense to revert to the old Division 3 North and South which was in place until (I think) 1958 with further regionalisation below that. I won't be holding my breath though.
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Post by Shireblogger on Dec 21, 2011 18:09:27 GMT 1
A number of teams in the Conference leagues struggle with travelling costs. It is particularly bad for some of the teams in Conference North such as Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford facing trips to places like Workington and Blyth. It would make sense to revert to the old Division 3 North and South which was in place until (I think) 1958 with further regionalisation below that. I won't be holding my breath though. Yes, I agree that regionalisation should be greater by the time we get to clubs like these. The current south eastern dominance of the Conference 2nd tier makes the north / south split absurdly far south.
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Paddy
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Post by Paddy on Dec 21, 2011 18:09:30 GMT 1
A number of teams in the Conference leagues struggle with travelling costs. It is particularly bad for some of the teams in Conference North such as Gloucester and Bishop's Stortford facing trips to places like Workington and Blyth. It would make sense to revert to the old Division 3 North and South which was in place until (I think) 1958 with further regionalisation below that. I won't be holding my breath though. This was going to my point that BSN and BSS can be geographically mis-interpreted. Bishop playing in BSN is silly when they have to travel up to Gateshead for instance, when Gateshead were/will/theoretically would be in BSN. When Bishop have Chelmsford literally 10 miles from them and they play in BSS! We still do get quick teams up the ranks, AFC Wimbledon springs to mind, from non-existent to 4th tier in 7 years.
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Paddy
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Post by Paddy on Dec 21, 2011 18:13:55 GMT 1
The only quick team on the continent I can think of is villareal who went from nothing to European football in 7 years. 94-01 I think it was?
Otherwise there is still dominance in the top tiers.
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Post by suedehead on Dec 21, 2011 18:24:33 GMT 1
Hoffenheim in Germany had a pretty swift ascent as well.
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vastar iner
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Post by vastar iner on Dec 21, 2011 18:56:52 GMT 1
Funny thing is though that if you look back 100 years, of the 18 teams that retained their place in the top flight, 12 are still there...our system is surprisingly resilient to change.
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Post by Panda on Dec 21, 2011 21:43:46 GMT 1
UNDER THE ITALIAN SYSTEM (indicative team allocations based on current league positions)
1-1-2-2-9-28
LEVEL 1 PREMIER LEAGUE - unchanged
LEVEL 2 CHAMPIONSHIP - unchanged
LEVEL 3 League One and League Two become LEAGUE ONE NORTH and LEAGUE ONE SOUTH
LEAGUE ONE NORTH Sheffield Wednesday Sheffield United Huddersfield Town Carlisle United Notts County Preston North End Bury Oldham Athletic Hartlepool United Tranmere Rovers Scunthorpe United Rochdale Chesterfield Burton Albion Rotherham United Port Vale Morecambe Accrington Stanley Crewe Alexandra Macclesfield Town Bradford City Walsall Shrewsbury Town Hereford United
LEAGUE ONE SOUTH Charlton Athletic Milton Keynes Dons Brentford Stevenage Colchester United AFC Bournemouth Leyton Orient Exeter City Yeovil Town Wycombe Wanderers Crawley Town Southend United Cheltenham Town Swindon Town Gillingham Oxford United Torquay United Aldershot Town Wimbledon Bristol Rovers Barnet Northampton Town Plymouth Argyle Dagenham & Redbridge
LEVEL 4 Teams from the Conference, Conference North and Conference South form LEAGUE TWO NORTH and LEAGUE TWO SOUTH
LEAGUE TWO NORTH Wrexham Fleetwood Town Southport York City Gateshead Mansfield Town Darlington Barrow Grimsby Town Lincoln City Stockport County Alfreton Town Hyde Stalybridge Celtic Guiseley Nuneaton Town Gainsborough Trinity Halifax Town Worcester City Corby Town Altrincham Droylsden Boston United Colwyn Bay
LEAGUE TWO SOUTH Luton Town Kidderminster Harriers Cambridge United Forest Green Rovers Braintree Town Ebbsfleet United Tamworth Telford United Newport County Kettering Town Hayes & Yeading United Bath City Woking Welling United Chelmsford City Dartford Sutton United Dover Athletic Dorchester Town Basingstoke Town Weston-super-Mare Eastleigh Truro City Tonbridge Angels
LEVEL 5 9 divisions - one for each English region with teams taken from current steps 2, 3, 4 and 5 of non-league pyramid (levels 6-9).
NORTH WEST CONFERENCE 1 Workington 2 Vauxhall Motors 3 Chester 4 Northwich Victoria 5 Chorley 6 Marine 7 FC United of Manchester 8 Nantwich Town 9 Kendal Town 10 Ashton United 11 Burscough 12 Curzon Ashton 13 Skelmersdale United 14 Fylde 15 Lancaster City 16 Woodley Sports 17 Witton Albion 18 Salford City 19 Trafford 20 Bamber Bridge
NORTH EAST CONFERENCE 1 Blyth Spartans 2 Durham City 3 Sunderland Ryhope CA 4 West Auckland Town 5 Whitley Bay 6 Dunton UTS 7 Spennymoor Town 8 Newton Aycliffe 9 Bedlington Terriers 10 Newcastle Benfield 11 Bishop Auckland 12 Ashington 13 Shildon 14 Norton & Stockton Ancients 15 Billingham Synthonia 16 Marske United 17 Guisborough Town 18 South Shields 19 Consett 20 Jarrow Roofing
YORKSHIRE & HUMBER CONFERENCE 1 Harrogate Town 2 Bradford Park Avenue 3 North Ferriby United 4 Frickley Athletic 5 Stocksbridge Park Steels 6 Whitby Town 7 Grantham Town 8 Stamford 9 Sheffield 10 Goole 11 Garforth Town 12 Lincoln United 13 Brigg Town 14 Harrogate Railway Athletic 15 Ossett Town 16 Wakefield 17 Ossett Albion 18 Tadcaster Albion 19 Bridlington Town 20 Scarborough Athletic
WEST MIDLANDS CONFERENCE 1 Solihull Moors 2 Hednesford Town 3 Rushall Olympic 4 Stafford Rangers 5 Chasetown 6 Leamington 7 Stourbridge 8 Redditch United 9 Evesham United 10 Sutton Coldfield Town 11 Leek Town 12 Newcastle Town 13 Romulus 14 Market Drayton Town 15 Kidsgrove Athletic 16 Halesowen Town 17 Bedworth United 18 Rugby Town 19 Stourport Swifts 20 Coventry Sphinx
EAST MIDLANDS CONFERENCE 1 Hinckley United 2 Eastwood Town 3 Worksop Town 4 Matlock Town 5 Mickleover Sports 6 Buxton 7 Brackley Town 8 Barwell 9 Carlton Town 10 Ilkeston 11 Hucknall Town 12 Loughborough Dynamo 13 New Mills 14 Coalville Town 15 Belper Town 16 Rainworth Miners Welfare 17 Shepshed Dynamo 18 Quorn 19 Retford United 20 Gresley
EASTERN CONFERENCE 1 Histon 2 Bishop's Stortford 3 Boreham Wood 4 Thurrock 5 Billericay Town 6 Lowestoft Town 7 Bury Town 8 Canvey Island 9 Aveley 10 Concord Rangers 11 East Thurrock United 12 Cambridge City 13 St. Albans City 14 Hitchin Town 15 Bedford Town 16 Arlesey Town 17 Hemel Hempstead Town 18 Needham Market 19 Grays Athletic 20 Leiston
SOUTH WEST CONFERENCE 1 Gloucester City 2 Salisbury City 3 Chippenham Town 4 Frome Town 5 Weymouth 6 Swindon Supermarine 7 Cirencester Town 8 Bideford 9 Paulton Rovers 10 Cinderford Town 11 Mangotsfield United 12 Bishops Cleeve 13 Bridgwater Town 14 Poole Town 15 Tiverton Town 16 Yate Town 17 Taunton Town 18 Clevedon Town 19 Wimborne Town 20 Willand Rovers
SOUTH EAST CONFERENCE 1 Eastbourne Borough 2 Havant & Waterlooville 3 Farnborough 4 Maidenhead United 5 Staines Town 6 Lewes 7 Margate 8 Hastings United 9 Leatherhead 10 Horsham 11 Totton 12 Oxford City 13 Chesham United 14 Banbury United 15 Bashley 16 Bognor Regis Town 17 Whitehawk 18 Folkestone Invicta 19 Worthing 20 Maidstone United
LONDON CONFERENCE 1 Bromley 2 Hampton & Richmond Borough 3 Hornchurch 4 Metropolitan Police 5 Cray Wanderers 6 Hendon 7 Carshalton Athletic 8 Kingstonian 9 Wingate & Finchley 10 Wealdstone 11 Harrow Borough 12 Tooting & Mitcham United 13 Dulwich Hamlet 14 Enfield Town 15 Uxbridge 16 AFC Hayes 17 Northwood 18 Corinthian-Casuals 19 Romford 20 Thamesmead Town
LEVEL 6 28 divisions - 2 for each of the current step 5 leagues
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Post by Panda on Dec 21, 2011 21:51:05 GMT 1
Thus, I'd argue for the status quo in the upper echelons. There's probably a case for regionalisation to sprout faster from the BSB downwards - e.g. 1-1-1-1-1-3-6-18-54-162. Given the very low probability of anything changing in the Football League, I'd like to see a structure of 1-1-1-1-1-4-8 followed by the existing leagues at step 5 and below, which would now move up a step by axing the pointless Conference North/South. The extra league at steps 2/3 of the pyramid would cover the Midlands and stop the Northern Premier League being diluted.
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Post by suedehead on Dec 21, 2011 22:01:11 GMT 1
How do promotion / relegation between steps 4 and 5 work in Italy?
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Post by Panda on Dec 21, 2011 22:11:29 GMT 1
How do promotion / relegation between steps 4 and 5 work in Italy? Winners of each step 5 league are promoted (or 2nd placed teams if winners don't meet promotion criteria). Teams finishing 2nd-5th in each division go into an English-style playoff system (although the ties are played over one leg with the higher-placed team playing at home. If games are level after extra-time, the higher-placed team is declared the winner) until there is one team left from each of the nine divisions. The nine surviving teams are grouped together into three groups of three. The three winners go into a mini knockout tournament, along with the winners of the Coppa Italia Serie D (the Italian eqivalent of the FA Trophy). They have semi-finals and a final with the winner promoted alongside the nine division winners. The bottom three in each step 4 division are relegated plus the losers in a series of relegation playoffs.
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Post by suedehead on Dec 21, 2011 22:28:30 GMT 1
Thanks By the time that's all over, it must be time for the new season to start!
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Post by Panda on Dec 21, 2011 22:54:18 GMT 1
It's an extra nine games for the playoff finalists but the divisions at that level have a maximum of 20 teams, so over the whole season it's still less games than a playoff team from the Championship, League One or League Two in England.
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Elmer
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Post by Elmer on Dec 21, 2011 23:27:29 GMT 1
Absolutely fascinating thread Gents. One must beware though that if its made too easy to climb to the top then it's just as easy for a club that's hit hard times to disappear completely without trace.
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Post by Panda on May 21, 2013 0:17:22 GMT 1
I'm currently working on a new proposal on this subject. I'll post it up here in the next few days.
Recent happenings in the non-league pyramid have convinced me more than ever that the system currently in place is both deeply flawed and downright unfair. I'll be interested to hear your opinions after I post my proposal for the structure of football in this country.
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Post by suedehead on May 21, 2013 0:50:11 GMT 1
I look forward to seeing your ideas. I shall stick with what I said when this thread was started in saying that regionalisation should start at a higher level than it does now and that having only two regions below Conference Premier is ridiculous. It just does not make economic sense for Bishop's Stortford and Workington to be in the same league with gates in the hundreds.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 21, 2013 6:50:49 GMT 1
Your ideas are always stimulating. I await the latest with interest.
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Post by Panda on May 21, 2013 22:52:30 GMT 1
OK, first a bit of background info on events of the past week. It's no secret (it's even been discussed in this thread) that there is a problem of geographical shift towards the south of the country, resulting in the ludicrous situation of clubs based in Oxfordshire and Gloucestershire playing in the Conference North. Unfortunately, the FA seem unwilling to acknowledge the problem. There are a number of possible reasons for this: - Gross incompetence
- Southern bias
- Punishing northern leagues and their clubs for a perceived lack of integration in the pyramid system in years gone by
- They simply don't see it as a problem
I'm tempted to think it's a mixture of all four. There have been signs in recent years that the FA have absolutely no idea of the never-ending struggle non-league clubs face just to survive and their attempt a couple of years to reduce the number of leagues at step 5 of the pyramid from 14 to 12 all but proved it. Thankfully, the leagues themselves rejected the FA's plans with the contempt they deserved. In addition, the creation of the Conference North/South has been incredibly damaging to non-league football, serving only to further narrow the top of the pyramid and increase clubs' travelling costs.
Next season, divisons at step 3 of the pyramid will increase to 24 clubs, as will the two step 4 divisions of the Isthmian League, which covers London and the South East. In order to cover the extra places available higher up, the FA said it would allow some runners-up at step 5 to be promoted on a points-per-game basis, in addition to the division winners. However, only runners-up in certain southern-based leagues would be able to go up on this basis.
However, some clubs higher up resigned from their leagues, creating more vacancies and there was hope the FA may allow runners-up from other step 5 leagues to be promoted. One of these was Spennymoor Town. Spennymoor won the Northern League in 2010, 2011 and 2012 and this season finished runners-up behind the re-formed Darlington, scoring 109 points in the process. They also won the FA Vase. They had the highest points-per-game ratio of all the step 5 runners-up. There could be no disputing that they deserved to be promoted on merit. Instead, five southern-based runners-up were promoted, along with Guernsey. That left one place available at step 4. The FA had the option to promote Spennymoor, who had more than proven their credentials, and double the number of opponents within 50 miles Darlington would have next season, or reprieve Walton Casuals, who finished bottom of Division 1 South of the Isthmian League, scoring 37 points. Obviously, they gave the place to Walton Casuals, and so despite scoring over 100 points, losing just 3 league games all season and winning at Wembley, Spennymoor find themselves denied promotion purely because of geography.
Critics might say they had their chance for the previous three years when they won their league but hadn't applied for promotion. They may also say they didn't apply in the past because they were happy to remain a big fish in a small pond but the reality is due to the vacuum of north east clubs higher up the pyramid, you can't blame a club for not wanting to take the massive step of promotion when they may struggle to find more than a handful of opponents within 100 miles. This is at the EIGHTH tier of English football.
Therefore, it is my conclusion that the pyramid is both flawed and unfair. I could go on, but I feel the events of last week and the process that has led up to them over the years proves my point perfectly.
So how do we fix the problem? That comes next...
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Post by Panda on May 21, 2013 23:59:28 GMT 1
THE SOLUTIONPutting aside the FA's incompetence and complete inability to come up with a system that is fair to clubs and leagues in all parts of the country, there are two main problems I see with the structure of football in England: - Too many tiers
- Not enough regionalisation
The English football system has 11 levels - the 4 divisions of the Premier League and Football League and the 7 "steps" of the non-league pyramid. Any divisions below step 7 aren't considered part of the pyramid, even if they are part of leagues within the pyramid.
The creation of the Conference North/South in 2004 created an additional and unnecessary level to the pyramid. It also helped reduce regionalisation by suddenly having the second tier divided into just two areas, rather than three and meaning each tier was less regional than before. It also resulted in a large number of clubs suddenly finding themselves in divisions with larger geographical footprints, placing a huge strain on their finances due to travelling costs and lower numbers of visiting fans.
The current structure of English football is: 1-1-1-1-1-2-3-6-14-17-41 My proposal would see League One and League Two of the Football League become League One North and League One South. This kills two birds with one stone in that it regionalises the system at a much higher level - the 3rd tier, rather than the 6th. The next step would see the Conference Premier abolished, leaving the Conference North and South as direct feeders into League One North and South. This would also eliminate another tier of the pyramid. There would be a new Midlands League covering what would now be the 5th and 6th tiers, sitting alongside the existing Northern Premier, Southern and Isthmian Leagues. The Midlands League Premier Division would sit at the 5th tier, with East and West divisions at the 6th tier. The existance of this league would increase the number of Midlands clubs further up the pyramid and also stop the Northern Premier League from being diluted with Midlands clubs. This, in turn, would also allow more clubs from the North of England to participate at a higher level, particularly the North East, which under the current FA model will only have 3 clubs in the top 4 levels of the non-league pyramid next season (based on official government regional boundaries). This would also allow the NPL's two Division 1 leagues to be split on a more logical East/West basis, rather than the current North/South. The existing leagues at the 9th, 10th and 11th tiers would remain as they are, except they would now be at the 7th, 8th and 9th tiers. There would be a strong case for increasing the number of leagues at the 7th tier from 14 to 16, so one team from each league would be promoted, with 16 teams coming down. The East Midlands and Cumbria would be possible areas for expansion. These changes would give a structure of: 1-1-2-2-4-8-14-17-41 LEVEL 1 PREMIER LEAGUE (20 clubs) 3 relegated
LEVEL 2 CHAMPIONSHIP (24 clubs) 3 promoted, 4 relegated (running total number of clubs: 44)
LEVEL 3 LEAGUE ONE NORTH (24 clubs) 2 promoted, 2 relegated LEAGUE ONE SOUTH (24 clubs) 2 promoted, 2 relegated (running total: 92) LEVEL 4 CONFERENCE NORTH (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 4 relegated CONFERENCE SOUTH (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 4 relegated (running total: 136) LEVEL 5 NORTHERN PREMIER LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated MIDLANDS LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated SOUTHERN LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated ISTHMIAN LEAGUE PREMIER (22 clubs) 2 promoted, 3 relegated (running total: 224) LEVEL 6 NORTHERN PREMIER LEAGUE DIVISION 1 EAST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated NORTHERN PREMIER LEAGUE DIVISION 1 WEST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated MIDLANDS LEAGUE DIVISION 1 EAST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated MIDLANDS LEAGUE DIVISION 1 WEST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated SOUTHERN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 CENTRAL (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated SOUTHERN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 SOUTH & WEST (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated ISTHMIAN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 NORTH (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated ISTHMIAN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 SOUTH (22 clubs) 1.5 promoted, 2 relegated (running total: 400) 1 club would be promoted automatically from each division, with a series of playoffs determining the other promotion places. LEVEL 7 NORTHERN LEAGUE DIVISION 1 (20 clubs) NORTHERN COUNTIES EAST LEAGUE PREMIER(20 clubs) NORTH WEST COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) MIDLAND ALLIANCE (20 clubs) EASTERN COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) SPARTAN SOUTH MIDLANDS LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) HELLENIC LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) UNITED COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) COMBINED COUNTIES LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) KENT LEAGUE (20 clubs) ESSEX SENIOR LEAGUE (20 clubs) SUSSEX COUNTY LEAGUE DIVISION 1 (20 clubs) WESSEX LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) WESTERN LEAGUE PREMIER (20 clubs) (running total: 680) League champions promoted, or highest placed eligible club. Additional promotional places decided on a points-per-game basis, regardless of location. Possible extension to 16 divisions would result in one team per league moving up. LEVEL 8 17 divisions with a maximum of 20 clubs (maximum running total: 1020) LEVEL 9 41 divisions with a maxium of 18 clubs - (some leagues at this level have temporary status within the pyramid and are due to be reviewed over a rolling 3-year cycle, so the number of leagues could vary each year) (maximum running total: 1758) The total number of teams within the pyramid probably wouldn't be higher than it is now - the number this season was 1616 - but the idea is that all teams would find themselves playing at a level better suited to their ability and geographical location.
It's getting late now so tomorrow night, I'll post an example of what the division line-ups would look like under this system.
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