The solution to penalty kicks?

[o]

I see they are talking about looking for another solution to penalty kicks after Bayern lost to Chelsea, funny how it's not been talked about before when England suffer
Anyway, I thought we could have a brainstorming and see what we can come up with as a solution to penalties? Bring back the golden goal, silver goal, or another idea?
I've always liked the idea of playing extra time, but after each 5 minutes elapses, one player is removed from each team, decided by the teams, and then the game carries on 10 v 10 until someone scores. Personally I think if you remove the possibility of penalties that teams might stop playing for them, and just go for it...

[Razzle Dazzle]

golden and silver goal are no good because that increases the likelyhood both teams are to scared to try and win it and settle for penalties.

penalty kicks is all about bottle, nerve, technique and luck, just like the 90 minutes before it, you get penalty kicks during the game so everyone knows how best to take them, i can't see a problem with penalties if the game is a draw, if anything i would go straight to penalties after 90 minutes...

the alternatives are worse, silver or golden goal + penalties anyway, or that stupid americanised thing they tried out in italy where you run from the halfway line one on one with the keeper and you have to score best of 5

[Paddy]

Sudden death extra time, no time limit. Makes the teams attack otherwise they'll just die from exhaustion, bit like tennis final set tie break.

[o]

Golden and silver goals can work if there are no penalties after them.
I do agree if we are to stick with pens, that they should come after 90 minutes, none of this extra time malarkey!

[smokeyb]

I have always thought about an alternative to penalties, and have thought of something. Instead of playing 30 mins extra time, what about each team take a corner from either side, then 2 free kicks from just outside the box, and finally one penalty. It encompasses most attacking play in a game, winner is who scores most. Play stops if defending team clears ball out of play. If no winner then repeat, until someone wins. A bit mad, but might work.

Or play extra time with no offside rule.

[suedehead]

Extra time without offside wouldn't necessarily produce a result but it's an interesting idea. It might at least reduce the number of matches going to penalties.

[Sm1ffj]

My Idea is After the 90 minutes, extra time will start, have a golden goal situation first goal wins, but start removing a player once every 5 minutes, 1 from each side starting with Defenders, then Midfielders, then Attackers, this will weaken the teams and make a Goal more likely. Hopefully by the end of the 30 minutes, there will be 6 less players on each team, so easier to score.

[Elmer]

No reason to change. It's only because a German team lost !!!!

[o]

But English teams have probably lost the most, and it is gutting to do so.

[Razzle Dazzle]

Win in normal time then. if they draw they run the risk of loosing on penalties. if u have 10 penalty shootouts each team should win 5 each, unless they are terrible or bottle it then they deserve to loose. english players looseon penalties for 2 reasons, first they say we dont practice them cos its a lottery, well you cant win the lottery if you dont put it on. if you practice putting a ball top corner with power your gonna be better than a guy who has never tried to take one ever. second we lack the technical ability throughout the squad to strike a deadball with the odd exception, gazza, le tissier, shearer, gerrard, rooney, lampard. i dont like penalties, maybe the best way is a replay after 90 mins and if thats a draw aswel, straight to penalties, if u cant beat a team at 2 attempts and then loose on penalties you deserve to loose. i just hate extra time, its pointless, its become holding out for penalties time

[vastar iner]

Replays. They were never a problem in the past. They had them at several World Cups. Piece of cake to organize the timetable so they fit in. And in this day and age dealing with tickets should be simple.

[frag]

May 25, 2012 22:45:44 GMT 1 smokeyb said:

I have always thought about an alternative to penalties, and have thought of something. Instead of playing 30 mins extra time, what about each team take a corner from either side, then 2 free kicks from just outside the box, and finally one penalty. It encompasses most attacking play in a game, winner is who scores most. Play stops if defending team clears ball out of play. If no winner then repeat, until someone wins. A bit mad, but might work.

Or play extra time with no offside rule.

Stoke would probably want long throws included too.

[suedehead]

May 26, 2012 11:46:27 GMT 1 vastar iner said:

Replays. They were never a problem in the past. They had them at several World Cups. Piece of cake to organize the timetable so they fit in. And in this day and age dealing with tickets should be simple.

That would mean extending the tournament schedule with the possibility of a long gap if there are no replays. That long gap wouldn't be popular with the television companies or with supporters who may face a long wait for the next match.

In the absence of an alternative to penalties they should at least try and reduce the chances of a shoot-out. The suggestion earlier in the thread of doing away with offside in extra time is surely worth trying in a minor tournament (e.g. whatever the Johnson's Paint Trophy is now called).

[Sm1ffj]

Another idea, after the full 90 minutes, take off both goalkeepers, leaving 10 against 10 with nobody being able to handle the ball on the pitch at all, feet only, with lesser protected goals, and play extra time this way.

[Paddy]

and a subbuteo kick off?

[Earl Purple]

Don't have knockout tournaments. Then you won't need penalty shoot-outs.

[Earl Purple]

An alternative solution that would work in the tournaments at least that have a group stage first:

Add up any points they have gained in their groups and also in knockout matches prior to this one. Give 2 points for a win in extra-time. The one with the better record then goes through.

Of course, both teams will go into the tie knowing which one has the better record, so the one who would lose if it finishes level will be more likely to play for a win. Note that you still play extra-time if necessary, just no penalties.

That would have got England through yesterday as we had a better record than Italy to qualify through the group (5 points against their 4). It might also give teams more incentive to do well in their groups.

Using this method:

World Cup 1990: England lose to the Germans as England got 1 win proper, 2 wins in extra time and 2 draws before they meet (9 points) whilst the Germans got 4 wins and 1 draw (13 points).

Euro 1996: England still beat Spain but again lose to Germany as both got through their group with 2 wins and a draw but Germany win their first knock-out proper. England get only 1 point from the Spain game in spite of proceeding (which also gives the team who will go through anyway some incentive to try and win proper).

World cup 1998: Argentina beat England, 2 wins and a draw vs 2 wins and a defeat.

Euro 2004: This time England beat Portugal. It makes no difference that Portugal won their group, both teams got 2 wins and 1 defeat and England had the better goal-difference.

World Cup 2006: Portugal get the better of England this time having won every game up to the point they met whilst England had drawn with Sweden.

I think it's not a bad system. It would have helped England on 2 of their penalty shoot-out defeats and we'd have gone into the others knowing in advance that a draw would put us out.

[suedehead]

That idea has its merits but also some drawbacks. FIrst, there is the question of how it would affect the matches in the group stages. Would it encourage more attacking football with teams aiming for the best possible record rather than doing just enough to get through? Would it lead to teams concentrating more on protecting a lead? Would teams be even more scared of losing the first match?

The biggest problem is that there will never be a tournament where all the groups are roughly equal. Teams in the group dubbed the group of death are always at a disadvantage. This could exacerbate that disadvantage as the teams qualifying would generally have qualified with fewer points than their opponents.

Don't think I'm dismissing the idea out of hand. I'm not. I think it could be worth a try. However, I think there are a few questions to be answered.

[Earl Purple]

In the first knockout phase, most of the time it would favour the team who won their group rather than the one that was runner-up, although not always as we see with England vs Portugal in Euro 2004 above. In that tournament both teams lost their opening games then won their next two to get through their groups.

6 points are better than 5 so gettting through with 2 wins and a defeat is vbetter than getting through with a win and 2 draws.

It could be that a team had a harder group but remember this is only a tiebreak and they will always progress if they win the game outright, and there is still extra time.

A team that gets through a round through this method is disadvantaged later in that they only get 1 point from the game. Therefore there is definitely an advantage in playing for a win for a team that actually wants to win the tournanent (apart from the fact that if they try to play for a draw they might lose).

[vastar iner]

Jun 1, 2012 22:53:37 GMT 1 suedehead said:

May 26, 2012 11:46:27 GMT 1 vastar iner said:

Replays. They were never a problem in the past. They had them at several World Cups. Piece of cake to organize the timetable so they fit in. And in this day and age dealing with tickets should be simple.

That would mean extending the tournament schedule with the possibility of a long gap if there are no replays. That long gap wouldn't be popular with the television companies or with supporters who may face a long wait for the next match.

It would ramp up the anticipation, surely? The gap does not need to be long either, a couple of days at most.