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Post by Jordan on May 7, 2019 8:10:06 GMT 1
Also I'm frustrated that no one is talking about Pod sneaking off for a cheeky threesome - I'm sure that's him you can see leaving the hall with a girl on each arm behind Sansa and the Hound when they're sat at the table in the feast scene.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 7, 2019 8:31:48 GMT 1
An absolutely brilliant episode. One of the all-time best. It had everything. The pathos of the funeral scene, which made for such a superb opening. Delightful romance - obviously Brienne and Jaime, but also Arya and Gendry. Snarling intrigue. A good versus evil debate (between Tyrion and Varys). Humour - especially Bronn's wonderful scene. Alliances being re-cast (e.g. Arya and the Hound). A brief battle with first rate special effects. Two shocking deaths. And I'm loving how the character development is so complex, and the goodies and baddies are not drawn in 2-dimensional black and white terms. Daenerys is one of the most interesting people ever created on television. Cunning in an early scene, when she promotes Gendry. And then incompetent later on, when she fails to inflict any damage on Euron's fleet. Almost every scene is a contender for greendemon's revised list of the all-time Top 60 GoT scenes. 10/10, without hesitation.
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Post by Jordan on May 7, 2019 8:40:45 GMT 1
^ I'd agree with almost all of that.
My only bugbear with how this has gone is the fact that it's far too plainly split between good guys vs. bad guys. All the characters in Cersei's camp are outright 'bad guys' while everyone else is on the opposing side. It would make the dynamic far more interesting if there were characters we're supposed to love on both sides of the fight. It's what made the Brienne vs. The Hound duel one of the best fight sequences in the shows history. It's what made the battle at Castle Black one of the best episodes in the first half of the shows run.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 7, 2019 9:33:57 GMT 1
^^^
Fair point. But it is no longer the Lanisters (bad) versus the rest (good). We're still not sure whether there will be a Stark versus Targaryen conflict. And if there is, which side will Jon join ?
And whilst Cersei appears not to have any redeeming features, I like the fact that even the Starks have their dark secrets and passions. Why is Sansa so blatantly and remorselessly antagonistic towards Dany ? What is motivating Arya to spend her life as an assassin ? Why is Jon such a wimp towards Dany ? What's Brann all about, as he manipulates others with his visions ? Do they all have ambitions for the Iron Throne, or do they just want to be King/Queen of the North ?
Meanwhile, I still haven't decided whether Dany might be a hero after all. Obviously, she started out that way. But the story cycle has moved her into this place where no-one really knows, and everyone has their doubts.
It was also helpful that Jaime reminded us of all the bad things he's done in his life. I think we were all getting too comfortable with him suddenly becoming a good guy. If he ends up back at Cersei's side, then that might result in some soul searching amongst fans of well-ripped good looking tough guys.
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Post by greendemon on May 7, 2019 12:15:10 GMT 1
Agreed with Shireblogger about this being a very strong episode. For me, this felt like a very authentically Game of Thronesy episode. The deaths of both Rhaegal and Missandei were shocking (less so Missandei because I'd seen a spoiler for that, unfortunately). Unlike the heroic deaths of Lyanna, Theon and Jorah last week, which were sad but ultimately felt "right", seeing Rhaegal shot down out of the blue and one of the last remaining truly good characters losing her head were ugly, horrible deaths, and made me feel as devastated as I'd expected to feel after the Battle of Winterfell. Some thoughts: - Oh, Dany. I never liked her but my heart is breaking for her at this point. In the space of a few episodes she has lost two dragons, her most loyal advisor, the bulk of her army, her best friend, her relationship with her new lover and her claim to the throne. I love how her arc has been portrayed, and I think to read her as having descended into madness is way off the mark. She is a good person but she has always had a ruthless streak. This is the girl who burned a woman alive, who locked up her treacherous handmaiden in a vault, who crucified the Masters of Meereen, who executed one of her own supporters when he betrayed her, who fed a Meereenese noble to her dragons. And all of this was Seasons 1-5. I have to say, having gone through what she's gone through the last few episodes, I can't blame her for wanting to torch the place if she believes it's the only way to get rid of Cersei. So no, I don't think this is "Mad Targaryen 2.0". It all makes total sense to me as the portrayal of a good person driven to do something terrible by grief and anger and yes, ultimately, her desire for the Throne as well. I am certain she will uncover Varys' scheming early next episode and roast him, just like she promised in Season 7. - This episode got a lot of hate from the fandom, and many tactical flaws have been pointed out. Apart from the fact that Dany apparently didn't see Euron's ships before Rhaegal was shot, I didn't really take issue with anything, certainly not more so than the Battle of Winterfell which was full of tactical WTFs. I think Cersei killing Tyrion and Dany at the gates of KL wouldn't have been in keeping with her character. She was more interested in causing Dany pain by making her watch Missandei's death, and will still be hoping to have the opportunity to make them both die a long, slow, horrible death. - To a certain extent I do agree with Jordan about the good v. bad thing. They've always done a good job of showing Cersei as a complex character but this season she does seem very mustache-twirly which is a shame. I think more than anyone else, she has suffered from the truncated final two seasons. I'd have loved another scene or two with her leading up to this, though I get that it's really been all about Winterfell up until now. The most interesting conflict now is between the Stark and Targaryen sides. - Jaime leaving Brienne. I don't think this undermines Brienne's character at all. She's always been a strong woman but she's allowed to be as emotional as anyone else. She held out hope for so long that she and Jaime could be together, and that he might accept that he's become a good person, and then he threw that hope in her face. I don't know if he really believes what he said to her, though. I think his rationale was "I might be the only person who can stop Cersei, so that's more important than my happiness, and I need to stop Brienne from following me". - lol don't ever tell Sansa anything It was stupid of Jon to expect anything else when he told them. I understand her reasons for telling Tyrion even if it was a bit crappy of her. - Hated Jon for leaving Ghost like that without saying goodbye. That felt so cruel. My one consolation is that at least he'll probably outlive his master Tormund will do a much better job of looking after him. - I too spotted the plothole with Tyrion trying to manipulate Cersei using the baby that Euron supposedly just conceived with her! I hope we'll see Euron's reaction to that next episode. Almost every scene is a contender for greendemon 's revised list of the all-time Top 60 GoT scenes. Agreed except for the scene with Bronn. And the one with Ghost. He was such a good boy
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TheThorne
Member
*Hillside, slip and slide, feel the pain, it's no surprise!*
Posts: 27,542
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Post by TheThorne on May 7, 2019 12:26:00 GMT 1
An absolutely brilliant episode. One of the all-time best. It had everything. The pathos of the funeral scene, which made for such a superb opening. Delightful romance - obviously Brienne and Jaime, but also Arya and Gendry. Snarling intrigue. A good versus evil debate (between Tyrion and Varys). Humour - especially Bronn's wonderful scene. Alliances being re-cast (e.g. Arya and the Hound). A brief battle with first rate special effects. Two shocking deaths. And I'm loving how the character development is so complex, and the goodies and baddies are not drawn in 2-dimensional black and white terms. Daenerys is one of the most interesting people ever created on television. Cunning in an early scene, when she promotes Gendry. And then incompetent later on, when she fails to inflict any damage on Euron's fleet. Almost every scene is a contender for greendemon's revised list of the all-time Top 60 GoT scenes. 10/10, without hesitation. The Gendry scene was like Daenerys being an X Factor judge. 'I have really bad news for you, I have not been happy with your family's past performances and I may have to let you go...' Sad face' ..... run your own castle as I made you a lord! You are going through to the next round of Game Of Thrones' grin!
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Post by o on May 7, 2019 12:35:36 GMT 1
I don't like what they've done with Bronn at all, and I think Jaime is bluffing to stop Brienne following him. Clegane will hill the Mountain, Arya will go to kill Cersei and be stopped somehow and Jaime will kill Cersei. I also don't like all this talk of Dothraki, they were all slaughtered by a half dozen at the battle of Winterfell? The Unsullied stayed out to protect the retreat, and I thought they were wiped out, then they are all on the boats in their 100s. A bit like how the Lannister army kept losing battles and got wiped out in the wagon train battle, yet they are still manning every tower, I'm assuming they weren't golden company men? I did enjoy it, just a couple of little bugbears, and did no one else see the Starbucks coffee cup in the scene with Jon, Tormund and Dany? I may only have spotted it as my daughter told me about it, but it was pretty blatant! And well spotted on the Cersei pregnancy and Tyrion's comment, Euron is too thick to know he's being played though? I was waiting for her to say she's not pregnant, and then the archers stick 20 arrows in Tyrion, Dany and the Unsullied, long spears not such a good idea against walls, archers and ballista...
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Post by greendemon on May 7, 2019 13:35:15 GMT 1
I agree with you about Bronn. I feel like if he isn't actually going to assassinate either of the Lannister brothers (something I didn't much like the idea of to begin with anyway), what's the point to him? It would have felt true to his character to go and sit out the war somewhere quiet. Re. armies and the size thereof, remember that in the loot train battle, the soldiers protecting the Tyrell gold all made it to King's Landing (otherwise there would have been no way to pay off the Iron Bank and hire the Golden Company). It was only the rear guard of the army, the force protecting the food, that got wiped out. And in the planning meeting in Winterfell, Grey Worm says only half the Unsullied were gone, so she must still have a fair number left. Probably only a handful of Dothraki though. There's been so much talk about Arya killing Cersei that I'm increasingly sure she's not going to now. She might try, but either fail or someone else gets there first. The Mountain is also on her list, but there's been so much hype around Cleganebowl that I think fans would riot if anyone other than the Hound killed his brother. She might mercy kill the Hound after Cleganebowl if he is badly injured - that would feel fitting. I like that she turned Gendry down; as she says, that's not her. If she survives, I could see her going on a long journey, maybe to see "what's west of Westeros" like she told Lady Crane. I didn't see the coffee cup at the time but I was very amused by all the memes Hilarious that the first time (as far as I can remember, anyway) something like this has happened and it's in the final season, the one that took an extra year to film and post-produce!
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Post by Jordan on May 7, 2019 14:50:30 GMT 1
I'm so convinced that Arya is going to kill Cersei but wearing Jamie's face or something like that.
So does Dany know about Jon dying/being resurrected now? She picked up on Davos' statement at their first meeting but Tyrion brushed it aside. I know she did then see his wounds on the ship out of Eastwatch, but was anything ever said about it? Are we to assume that she heard about the story off camera? Because Tormund was talking about it quite openly and she didn't seem to bat an eyelid.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 7, 2019 15:26:11 GMT 1
Didn't Cersei reveal her pregnancy to Jaime at the end of Season 7 ? I thought she did. Which means Jaime could have told Tyrion.
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Post by greendemon on May 7, 2019 15:45:40 GMT 1
Oh I think from a viewer's perspective it's easy to see how Tyrion could have known. The issue is that Euron thinks the child is his and has only just been conceived.
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Post by Shireblogger on May 7, 2019 16:11:11 GMT 1
Oh I think from a viewer's perspective it's easy to see how Tyrion could have known. The issue is that Euron thinks the child is his and has only just been conceived. But Euron is an egostical, ignorant MCP. Therefore its easy to see how someone cunning like Cersei can con him.
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Post by o on May 7, 2019 17:15:56 GMT 1
I wonder how many angry bees Greyworm chewed through in that episode?
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Post by S1m on May 8, 2019 0:40:44 GMT 1
I think that for those of us who remember the books fairly well and really love the world they're set in, it's impossible not to have some theories (particularly going into this season) because, as much as GoT and ASoIaF are separate things, the show has picked up enough from the books that you are always wondering whether this thing or that thing from the books will have a bearing on the show. In some ways it doesn't help that GRRM has himself said that the endings of both stories will largely be similar! We are in an almost unique position here of watching a TV adaptation of books that haven't yet been written, so some speculation was inevitable. The more I reflect on Episode 3, the more I realise it was an ending to the White Walker threat* that was written for those who have just been watching the show and haven't read the books. Most people I know in that category adored Episode 3. Whereas people like me were wanting some sort of pay-off with the Azor Ahai stuff (which is barely mentioned in the show), and we also I think expected some kind of deeper knowledge about the NK would be revealed at some point because GRRM has always said he doesn't like evil characters who are just evil for the sake of it. That's why the NK's death felt so anticlimactic to me. I wish I hadn't speculated so much going into this season but honestly, between the books and having two years between Season 7 and this one (to say nothing of the eight years of build-up for the WW threat!), I can't blame myself. I'm just not one of those people who can turn off the overthink Game of Thrones is without a doubt the most invested I've ever been in a TV show fandom. It has been outstanding television. Like Jordan I am confident I will enjoy the story as a whole after the dust has settled. The unceremonious end of the NK is probably only the third time in the series' whole run that it has really disappointed me. And I don't actually have many theories about how the endgame with Cersei plays out so it should be easier to enjoy it for what it is. * I'm assuming that last week actually was the end of the Night King. I think that's a safe assumption, to be honest, and I'm not about to get myself hyped up again for something that is definitely not going to happen (and which would, in all honesty, feel a bit cheap now). I've read the books. I just have little hope of them ever bringing the story to an end. By book 4 even, they were rambling rather than sprawling and introducing new dull sidestories and characters I felt.
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Post by greendemon on May 10, 2019 18:15:30 GMT 1
Oh I think from a viewer's perspective it's easy to see how Tyrion could have known. The issue is that Euron thinks the child is his and has only just been conceived. But Euron is an egostical, ignorant MCP. Therefore its easy to see how someone cunning like Cersei can con him. I don't really get Euron. It feels a bit like we're being asked to believe he is simultaneously ignorant but also apparently a mastermind of naval strategy. Part of me suspects they are going to just brush over the conversation between Cersei and Tyrion where he knows about the baby and Euron won't react to it at all, but I'm hoping otherwise. Euron feels like he could have been so much more interesting if they'd introduced him a bit earlier. There's no depth to him at all; his character development seems to consist entirely of his being even more homicidal than the average Greyjoy (quite an achievement, it must be said) and quite possibly mad. I see that he was needed to achieve certain things for Cersei (getting rid of the Dornish and one of Dany's dragons) but because every scene with Cersei in apparently also has to have him as well it's kind of ruined her scenes for me this season - not that there have been many to ruin. Ah well. Hopefully he'll get torched early on next episode and we can all move on. What would be really satisfying would be to see Yara reappear with her ships (and hopefully the Dornish forces now that we know they have a new leader; that was her original job) and send him to the bottom of Blackwater Bay. I'm not confident of that, but I can hope. Any chance we'll ever see poor old Uncle Edmure again now the Freys are dead?
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Post by greendemon on May 10, 2019 18:24:15 GMT 1
I've read the books. I just have little hope of them ever bringing the story to an end. By book 4 even, they were rambling rather than sprawling and introducing new dull sidestories and characters I felt. I agree with you to a certain extent; I didn't enjoy the last book especially. But at least GRRM's end to the story - if it ever comes - will pay off some of the things he's built up. I will be astonished if he ends the WW threat in the same way. He just needs to finish writing the damn things...
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Post by S1m on May 10, 2019 21:57:48 GMT 1
I've read the books. I just have little hope of them ever bringing the story to an end. By book 4 even, they were rambling rather than sprawling and introducing new dull sidestories and characters I felt. I agree with you to a certain extent; I didn't enjoy the last book especially. But at least GRRM's end to the story - if it ever comes - will pay off some of the things he's built up. I will be astonished if he ends the WW threat in the same way. He just needs to finish writing the damn things... I don't see how he could, unless he introduces a Night King type character sharpish. One thing I like in the books that's clearly abandoned so far on screen is that winter is not just a metaphor for the dead rising as on screen, it's a harsh seasonal change which lasts months and years and kills more than an army.
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Post by o on May 10, 2019 22:52:40 GMT 1
I was thinking with Jaime heading to KL that he will ask Cersei how their baby is, and Euron will blow a fuse when he realises he's been played, but Yara sorting him out would be better! She has to do something surely?
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Post by o on May 13, 2019 11:59:01 GMT 1
Wow, I know I say it every week, but wow...
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Post by Mart!n on May 13, 2019 12:19:40 GMT 1
All I'm going to say it was a naff episode for now, its just a mad woman destroying everything in her path, the whole episode lacked of substance. Mind you it was spectacular to watch effects wise.
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